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Title
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Robert Cross Papers
Description
An account of the resource
Correspondence, reports, recommendations, statements, and news clippings from students, administrators, board members, and alums. All of these documents passed through the Swarthmore President's Office during Robert Cross' time there.
Source
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Friends Historical Library
Text
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Title
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[Memo re Black Studies Committee, 17 May 1968]
Description
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Box 12, Black Curriculum Committee
Creator
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Courtney Smith
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
05/17/1968
Format
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JPG
Black Studies
Clinton Etheridge
Don Mizell
Faculty
Marilyn Allman (Maye)
Marilyn Holifield
President's Office
Sam Shepard
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Audio files, transcriptions and photographs documenting the interviews of Swarthmore College alumni, former faculty, and community activists who played an active role in the Black activism at Swarthmore College from 1968 to 1972.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Black Liberation 1969 Research Team
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
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Ali Roseberry-Polier
John Gagnon
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Ava Harris Stanley
Dublin Core
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Title
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Ava Harris (Stanley)
Creator
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Ava Harris Stanley
John Gagnon
Ali Roseberry-Polier
Publisher
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[n.p.]
Date
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08/06/2014
Format
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mp3
1969 sit-in
1970 sit-in
Ava Harris (Stanley)
Black admissions
Black Cultural Center
Don Mizell
Faculty
Marilyn Allman (Maye)
Marilyn Holifield
Sam Shepard
-
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PDF Text
Text
This is an interview with Dr. Ava Harris Stanley, who was a student at Swarthmore College from 1967 1972. She was a member of SASS and served as the treasurer for SASS as well as participated in the 1969 sitin in the admissions office. The interview was conducted by John Gagnon and Ali RoseberryPolier on Wednesday August 6, 2014 via phone. ARP: OK we just started. This is Ali; I am Dr. Dorsey’s research assistant for the summer. I just graduated. AHS: Congratulations ARP: Thank you. JG: And this is John. I’m a current student that is a research assistant for Dr. Dorsey. AHS: Alright, how can I help you both? ARP: Can we get started with the interview? AHS: Yes. ARP: Thank you. JG: OK. Well to start off with if you just want to give us a little bit of your overview of your experiences at Swarthmore. I think that would be a good place for us to start. AHS: That’s a while back. So my experiences at Swarthmore. The experience was completely new to me. I had as a child, as a teenager, grew up on the south side of Chicago, which has a long history, AfricanAmerican history, no exposure to Quaker traditions or even that demographic. So the experience was new to me. The educational experience was also new to me because I was much more exposed to I suppose you would call it not conceptual, not analytical learning style, so it was drop Ava into the ocean see if she can swim. So the exposure to AfricanAmerican, interestingly enough was also different because the AfricanAmerican history of the midwest, the experience that is to say, particularly Chicago is way different from the east coast New York, New Jersey, and south. And so I was exposed to basic individuals of history but not the text, not the literature of the east coast. There’s a lot more, to me anyway, to literature of biography and autobiography was what I was exposed to as opposed to the literature of Sociology or De Bois or Harold Cruse1 . It was an interesting experience. I was used to the ideas of AfricanAmerican organizations because that was the only way that we functioned was through organizations, so that was ok. That was actually the part that I was most familiar with. The part, the expectations of other nonblack students was also new to me. That was the first time people ever wanted to pat my hair, see what it felt like. I had never really been exposed to suburban living or people who lived in the suburbs; I was strictly urban. I would say that and the
1
Harold Cruse was the author of The Crisis of the Negro Intellectual in 1967. He taught African American Studies at the University of Michigan beginning in 1968. Among his ideologies were his stance against integration, rather he supported and implored AfricanAmericans to reclaim their cultural heritage and to establish centers of cultural influence.
�academic atmosphere made it an interesting set of years. I think I was enriched by it, but there was a lot of kicking and screaming in the process. I think there are easier ways to expose young students to each other, but it was a politically charged atmosphere. Now I realize later on that most academic atmospheres are politically charged, so that was nothing that was different. Did I feel like I was mistreated no. Did I feel like I could have had a better time in the process yeah. I think orientation could have been a little bit different; mainly orientation that week was getting to know where all the building were not getting exposed to the class style. I suppose if I had gone to well that was the other thing I did not go to a high velocity prep school where I learned to read the primary literature and analyze it in a way that was useful, so that I had to learn how to do that. And the thing that I most noticed is that even though I wasn’t good at Math and Science and Chemistry, there was much less bias there. I was much more drawn to it after a certain point. It was the perspectives, even the liberal perspectives in History and Sociology had no room for the voice of the studied group or individual so I was...For that reason I think Biology and Chemistry were actually easier. In terms of mentorship which I think is really the most important thing in terms of academic development and focusing on what your path should be there was none until I met Kathryn Morgan. And in terms of medicine there was none until I met people, I think they had a proposal for a postbac program and they brought in people who had graduated but needed another year of exposure to Science so they could move on. And I met these people and then I saw them as successful, and at that point I basically did a u turn or I think maybe it was a right turn. At any rate that mentorship process in the most important part of the process of learning and education. There are certain ways to break paths, that is to develop new ideas, to learn new things, and to communicate them and that part needs a model that part needs a way of thinking about it and going about it and its just not clear to somebody coming from where I came from which is basically south side, went to a private parochial high school, but you learn basic stuff; you didn’t learn academic process there. But once you are able to understand academic process then you can break new paths and move forward. That kind of trust relationship, it should happen more often I don’t know how to make it more often but it should happen more often. Does that explain? JG/ARP: Yeah, that’s good. JG: So I guess we want to go from there, you talked about being familiar with black organizations, were you a member of SASS? AHS: yes JG: And when did you join SASS? AHS: ‘70 no, no, when did I come in? ‘67 JG: In ‘67 AHS: Yeah, in September of ‘67. I think that’s when they we first had,started having meetings then. I think that, I’m not even sure, I think I remember meeting about an argument about what
�we were going to call ourselves. I don’t think anybody took minutes for those meetings, so I can’t tell you which one it was or whether it well and truly happened. JG: So you were in it from the beginning of the program of the group? AHS: I think so. JG: And do you remember why you decided to join? AHS: I’m not even sure I understand the question because; I suppose the question to me was why wouldn’t I join. Did I see myself as AfricanAmerican yes. Did I feel like I had shared values hope so, wasn’t sure but was willing to find out. We actually were very diverse, very heterogenous. It was kinda amazing, I mean suburban, urban, I mean a wide demographic. At the time the admissions office to me the reason we started meeting was because the admissions office had done an analysis of who the black students were in hopes that they could further develop the black student population. But they did it in a very they wrote a paper and said ‘here what do you think?’ As opposed to having small group meetings and saying ‘what works for you, what doesn’t work for you.’ They looked at it as not student development but what works for the college. They wrote a paper there were only about 50 of us so you could figure out who was who and you could also figure out what the SAT score were and other stuff it wasn’t the kind of paper that you share with subjects but they were doing the best they could. But anyway there were all kind of reactions to that; to me it was knowledge, to everybody else it was some people were very offended and you could look at the paper and say ‘this is a very wide demographic’ and I came to realize, and they based in on the basis of schools and SAT scores and then as I got to know them I realized this is a wide demographic in terms of academic background as well as cultural background. Even at that point there were AfricanAmericans who were from the Caribbean, AfricanAmericans from Harlem, New York, New Jersey are totally different from AfricanAmericans from the South Side. AfricanAmericans from Florida and Virginia are totally different from AfricanAmericans from Chicago. Africans from the Caribbean are different from all of that. There were some students who didn’t join, and I was never sure about their motivations. JG: Were there many of those, or were they pretty few in number? AHS: There were a few; there were a few. JG: But they never voiced their reason why they didn’t join? AHS: I don’t think I ever asked them. I don’t think I was at that stage; I was a freshman. But my background had been from organizations with successful social and political lives. My father was in the democratic party in Chicago, particularly the Young Democrats, and this had been an organization present since the 19th Century, I think Chicago had a black congressman either early 1900’s or late 19th Century but there was some type of black organized political life in Chicago. So that was how I understood organizations. SASS was a lot less structured, but I
�thought it would pursue goals and articulate and speak for and also accomplish things that would improve student life and student interest. ARP: So what was your involvement with the 1969 takeover of Parrish Hall? What do you remember about that? AHS: I was there. I didn’t really like it. ARP: What about it did you not like? AHS: I felt as part of an organization it was something I had to do, but I didn’t think that and it was part of the process of other student activities that were going on in the region at the time. They weren’t going on in the South Side of Chicago at the time; we had already had student life at the University of Chicago. My mother actually went to the University of Chicago, MBA 1948. She commuted though. But I felt like it was an important step and we needed to be unified. And the demands seemed reasonable and at that point making them requests didn’t seem appropriate because we were outside the tradition of Swarthmore thinking and maybe even Quaker thought I don’t know I haven’t studied enough philosophy. I know the Quaker meetings I went to, I was the only black person, so I’m thinking we were probably outside that tradition. JG: Do you remember how you felt during the days that you were sittingin in the admissions office? AHS: Me personally, I was just holding on. It wasn’t something that I well and truly wanted to do. I’m not a protest kind of individual; I mean, will be in granted situations. If this was a way of me asserting myself and this was the option I had as opposed to not being a part of that organization and at that point there only seemed to be two choices, either you’re in or you’re out I said well, ok. ARP: So after President Courtney Smith died, SASS ended the sitin and many students left campus; did you leave campus at that point? AHS: yeah where were we; we were at some church in some place. Were we in Chester or Philadelphia? I don’t remember. ARP: What can you remember about the exit from campus? AHS: I think we were in private cars. Then when we got there, I don’t even remember where we slept, probably on the floor because we were sleeping on the floor in the admissions office. I remember trying to communicate and trying to get people to talk to each other because on hand I thought it was really difficult at that point because Sam Shepard was the president of the group2 , and I wasn’t really part of the Seven Sisters, it was more like I was trying to mediate between the two and I felt like I was getting alright I’m trying to get along here; I’m not even sure what the
2
Sam Shepard was the original president of SASS, and graduated in 1968. Clinton Etheridge was the current president of SASS during this time.
�issue was. I think I was trying to make sense of, trying to make something coherent. Why are we here and what should we do next. I don’t think that was clear to me so I just took the next semester off. I came back and I think that was sophomore or junior year and then I came back. When I came back there were other activities going on. JG: And then when you came back, we found that there were some documents where your were listed as the treasurer for SASS. AHS: Treasurer, yes. I was; I just collected membership money and deposited it in an account. JG: How long were you in that position? AHS: Maybe a year. I think I was on the steering committee one year; maybe I was, maybe I wasn’t. I did have a lot of things to say. JG: Do you remember other members of SASS that were on other committees with you? AHS: I remember Harold Trammel but I don’t remember whether he was a part of the steering committee. Don Mizell. Holly Robinson. Gillespie, Myra Rose JG: As members of the steering committee? AHS: I’m trying to remember. I know Holly was. Mizell was, I’m not sure about the others. There were a lot of disagreements about how to go about things. ARP: What sort of disagreements? AHS: I’m trying to remember what they were. They mainly stand out as conflict. I’m not even sure the issues were all that significant. Yeah, I remember. At a certain point a lot of people had graduated on and the steering committee had a lot of freshmen on it, and Holly. And I think Mizell was trying to basically bulldoze people, and I wasn’t really sure whether that was for the good of the organization or for the good of Don Mizell. ARP: Yeah. AHS: And I basically said to Holly, well, why do you want to be involved in this process? Because my conversations with Mizell would be more like, we need to be an organization of people as well as of issues, and it’s not so much who the leader is, but what about leadership development. I’m kind of summarizing here, I probably wasn’t as articulate. We had meetings there was somebody else who was good, she was a history major. I’m having a hard time remembering her name. Very toughminded. I just felt like I spent a lot of time trying to assert interests of group process, rather than, you know, individual leadership process. Interestingly enough, a template for organizations in general. Yeah, I was treasurer, and then I think I don’t think I was ever really a part of the steering committee, although I certainly had things to say.
�ARP: Yeah. Did you get the sense that any of those divisions within SASS were along lines of gender, in terms of leadership? AHS: Initially, yes, very much. Marilyn we used to call them the Marilyns, Marilyn Holifield and Marilyn Allman. They both had very clear ideas of what should happen. More Marilyn Allman, I listened to Marilyn Allman more than I did Holifield. Holifield wasn’t around all that much. People listened to what they had to say. They were fairly coherent. And they were also fairly coherent in meetings, which is probably where I heard most of what they had to say. I remember an interaction between Marilyn Allman and a history professor at a meeting where we were trying to develop Black Studies, trying to define it, determine it in terms of focus, in terms of where courses should be. The history professor was saying that many times, specific culturally focused course work or course concentrations didn’t survive or didn’t have academic focus or weren’t well funded. And Marilyn’s specific question was, and how does this relate to Black Studies? JG: And so was that the Black Studies Curriculum Committee? AHS: Yeah. JG: And you were a part of that. AHS: Yeah. I guess, yeah. JG: And from your experiences on that, did you feel like the faculty members or administrative members that you dealt with treated you as a respectable person, or equal that had something good to contribute to the conversation? AHS: That’s a loaded question. We sat on different sides of the table but we had different sets of armamentarium. It was unloaded for us politically in that we didn’t have the budget, we didn’t have the perspective on how to integrate African American history into history, integrate DuBois into sociology. And so, yeah, they were respectful in the context of the academic process of funding, hiring, grant proposals, and academic and faculty politics, yeah. [pause] The other interesting thing, I was involved in a meeting with, I think maybe a provost, about the Black Student House, when they basically said they would call us for meetings, and I’d go, alright, what the fuck’s going on now. I didn’t quite say that, but their project line of how things should work was not communicated to us at any point in time. And knowing how committees work and how management and management style works, I’m also sure that wasn’t intentional, but it certainly was hard to predict. I remember being in a meeting where we were basically offered the building, and I’m thinking, this is what I’m sitting here to say, to say, OK. So I said, OK, that’ll be fine. With funding for it. And I said, OK, yes, thank you. At that point, students weren’t supposed to say thank you, but I nodded my head and was agreeable. Even now, I realize that friendliness and collegiality can be misconstrued, and I think I was appropriate at the time.
�JG: And do you remember other interactions with the faculty regarding getting the Black Cultural Center? AHS: That was the one I remember the most. There was one protest where we went to the house of a later president and somebody read poetry basically saying, we’re not happy with what you’re doing. And I’m thinking, I’m always thinking, whenever I go to a protest, and I’ve been to other protests, this isn’t making any sense. But, OK, we want to do this, you want to do this, you think it’s important, OK. That president was only there for a year, I think. Was his name Friend?3 ARP: Would that have been Robert Cross?4 AHS: Maybe so, Cross, yeah. ARP: And, do you remember, you said you were in the meeting where you agreed to the building for the Black Cultural Center. Do you remember why students chose that building, or why that building was the one that ended up getting decided on? AHS: Why that building was offered, I have no idea. That was one of those things, I wanted to stop and say, wait, where is this coming from? Why are you offering us this? Do we have choices here? ARP: Yeah. AHS: And I said to myself, somebody somewhere knows this and somebody should have told me, but I realized I was at a meeting, and these meetings are always like, alright, we’re going to sit down and talk to you and we’re not going to have any preamble to these discussions. Or the preamble that we have is more of a principled, conceptual one. It doesn’t talk about facts or who’s involved or so I did not ask those key questions, but I also thought, would I get a clear answer if I asked them? ARP: Yeah, certainly. AHS: So, I would have liked to have a contact inside that management process to tell me exactly what was going on, and I did not have one. ARP: Yeah. And did you feel that the faculty and administration was sort of opaque with all members of SASS? AHS: Yeah, I think so. ARP: And did they, did you feel that they at any point deferred to the male members more than the women in SASS?
3 4
Theodore Friend was the Swarthmore College President from 1973 1982. Robert Cross was the Swarthmore College President from 1969 1971.
�AHS: Only when they wrote the history. The history of that period that was written, I’m not sure who commissioned it, but there were no women involved in that history. I mean, there were no women mentioned in that history. ARP: Yeah. And that wasn’t your experience from being involved? AHS: Not at all. JG: Going back briefly to you saying you were excluded from a lot of details on the Black Cultural Center. Did you ever hear anything about the Michener Fund? AHS: That came through, but I didn’t know how it was connected to the James Michener left a lot of money, but they decided how to spend it. ARP: The administration did? AHS: Yeah. ARP: And so did you have any idea how the fund was to be divided, or what role it was to play? AHS: No. I never saw that paperwork. ARP: Yeah. JG: I guess just in general, how do you perceive that your work in SASS shaped your experiences as a student? AHS: I guess the question for me would be, were my work in SASS and my work as a student connected? I’m not sure if they were connected. JG: I guess additionally, did you feel that your association with SASS influenced how you were perceived in the greater college community by other students? AHS: That I don’t know. JG: Yeah. AHS: The backgrounds of the other students that I met I met people who came from the suburbs, people who were it was just a really big demographic in terms of people who were learned, rich, wellconnected, long traditions of success, familial success. I accepted them for who they were, but they certainly weren’t me. I had long traditions of survival, but my mother was the first person in our family to graduate, my grandparents had completed high school, so at a certain point I didn’t pay too much attention to my relationships or how other people perceived me, I was just more interested in maybe helping somebody else and then trying to get out.
�ARP: Yeah. And to back up a little bit, you were talking earlier about the role that faculty played, especially when Kathryn Morgan came, and I was wondering if you could talk a little bit more about your relationships with black faculty or administrators. AHS: I think there were people in the admissions office, I think the admissions office tried to hire people specifically to recruit black students. During my sojourn there was the first time they tried to hire black faculty and administrators so I tried to have relationships with them. JG: But Kathryn Morgan was the one you had the most interaction with, or that meant the most to you? AHS: Yes. It was more of, it gave me to understand how research was supposed to work. That you started with primary research and worked your way forward into analysis. And that, without the true primary research I mean, you can do history from documents and that’s certainly valid and gives you a good perspective and perception, but talking to people and listening to their stories for me has always been the central way of getting perspective and perception, not just on events but also on how people perceive events. And from that you can develop models of thinking about it. There were, I think there was one political science professor there, and I dropped out of his course on day one because he talked in four line sentences. And I thought um, no, analysis is important, but analysis without background OK, it’s wonderful, it’s impressive, but this is not how I learn. ARP: And that’s something you were able to get more in Kathryn Morgan’s classes? AHS: It was more, yeah. I was successful there because it gave me to understand how models are built. It gave me a feeling of, OK, I understand how this works. And that was really, I think, my first exposure to a real way of looking at methodology more than just having to memorize models, that was building methods. So yeah, I would say yeah. In terms of other people basically, I think I graduated in sociology but I don’t think I was ever really a sociologist. Even when I graduated I honestly have to say I was not wellread in sociology. I got a degree. ARP: Did you work at all with Asmarom Legesse in that department? AHS: Say again? ARP: Did you work or take any classes with Asmarom Legesse when you were studying sociology? AHS: I don't think, were they there when I was there? I don't think so. JG: I’m not sure how long he stayed. He was there for a period. He was also in anthropology, rather than sociology. AHS: Yeah, anthropology, yeah. I think I did take a course with him. JG: But that was the extent of your relationship with him?
�AHS: Yeah, right. ARP: You mentioned a couple minutes ago students getting more involved in recruiting more black students. Is that something that you were involved with at all? AHS: Recruiting, yeah, I did go on a recruitment trip with one of the administrators there. He told me I wasn’t good at it because I didn’t smile enough. ARP: Do you remember which administrator that was? Would it have been William Cline by any chance? AHS: I think it was a guy that was only there for a year. But I don’t think it was William Cline. Was that CLINE? ARP: Yeah. AHS: I’m blanking at names. ARP: That’s alright. JG: That’s fine. AHS: I’d do better if I had a picture of him. I don’t think he was in the admissions office. Wasn’t he an assistant dean? Or was he in admissions? ARP: He was in admissions, not for very long though. AHS: OK, then it must have been him, alright. JG: Another thing that comes to mind with the recruitment is the Black at Swarthmore booklet. Do you have any memories or experiences with that? AHS: Blacks at Swarthmore? JG: The booklet, the recruitment booklet. AHS: No. I don’t think so. I think I may have seen it, but I don’t think I was a part of writing it. JG: And you don’t remember other people working on it? AHS: No, I don’t remember that. ARP: Thank you. Were you involved in other black organizations, such as the Gospel Choir or the Black Dance Troupe? Do you remember what sort of impact they had on college life when they started? AHS: I think the gospel choir was just starting as I left, and I wasn’t involved in that. I graduated in ‘72. The last year I was there I don’t think I was that involved in student life.
�ARP: Yeah. JG: And the same goes for the dance troupe, do you remember that at all? AHS: I’m pretty sure that happened after I left. I think it did. Maybe it didn’t, but I wasn’t involved in it. ARP: OK, yeah, thank you. JG: And were there any other groups similar to those that your remember that we’re forgetting? AHS: SASS was enough, I guarantee. In terms of student groups, right? JG: Yes. AHS: SASS was enough. ARP: Is there anything else that you’d want to add about your time at Swarthmore, and particularly your involvement with SASS? Anything we’re leaving out? AHS: I think you brought out a lot more than I thought I remembered. So I think I’m done. ARP: Thank you. JG: It’s been really nice, thank you. AHS: Best of good luck to both of you. ARP and JG: Thank you so much.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Audio files, transcriptions and photographs documenting the interviews of Swarthmore College alumni, former faculty, and community activists who played an active role in the Black activism at Swarthmore College from 1968 to 1972.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Black Liberation 1969 Research Team
Text
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Title
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Ava Harris Stanley Interview Transcription
Creator
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John Gagnon
Ali Roseberry-Polier
Ava Harris Stanley
Date
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08/06/2014
Format
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PDF
1969 sit-in
1970 sit-in
Ava Harris (Stanley)
Black admissions
Black Cultural Center
Black Studies
Faculty
Marilyn Allman (Maye)
Marilyn Holifield
Sam Shepard
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Audio files, transcriptions and photographs documenting the interviews of Swarthmore College alumni, former faculty, and community activists who played an active role in the Black activism at Swarthmore College from 1968 to 1972.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Black Liberation 1969 Research Team
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Ali Roseberry-Polier
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Diane Batts Morrow
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Title
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Diane Batts (Morrow)
Creator
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Ali Roseberry-Polier
Diane Batts Morrow
Date
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07/15/2014
Format
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MP3
1969 sit-in
Black admissions
Black Cultural Center
Black Studies
Clinton Etheridge
Courtney Smith's death
Diane Batts (Morrow)
John Morrow
Marilyn Holifield
Sam Shepard
Samuel Jordan Jr.
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Interview with Diane Batts Morrow, who graduated from Swarthmore College in 1969. She earned her PhD in history from the University of Georgia, and is author of the book Persons of Color and Religious at the Same Time: The Oblate Sisters of Providence, 1828-1860. She now teaches History and African American Studies at the University of Georgia. Interview conducted by Alison Roseberry-Polier, research assistant, on July 15, 2014, at the home of Diane Batts Morrow. The transcription is word-for-word, with the exception of filler words. At the end, there is an addendum written over email the following week. Alison Roseberry-Polier: OK, so, to begin with could you tell me a little bit about your time at Swarthmore, what you were involved in doing, what you spent your time on, just to give me an overview and a sense of what your time was like? Diane Batts Morrow: OK, I will dig deep into the recesses of my brain to recall. I guess it was almost 50 years ago because I graduated 45 years ago. I was a history major at Swarthmore. I think I worked on the school newspaper. I was the circulation department for a while. I wasn’t involved in athletics or anything like that. Let’s see, I early on discovered I wanted to be a history major, and I think for me the biggest intellectual experience at Swarthmore was discovering the huge difference between history as presented at Swarthmore and history as presented in high school. I hated history in high school, and when I got to Swarthmore we were talking about concepts and ideas and people in a new way. It not only made sense, but it made history really important, so I was delighted at that discovery and decided to be a history major early on. I was not particularly active in any clubs or organizations and – let’s see, what did I do when I was there? I was a senior resident my senior year. I did get involved with the Upward Bound program. I was a counselor on the Upward Bound program for my junior and senior years and that was a really important and wonderful experience for me. Other than that, I don’t really have a whole lot to say. Classes were good, I had friends, and although I lived in Philadelphia, I stayed on campus, and I remember distinctly that it cost exactly one dollar to go home on the Media local. It was as if I lived much farther away because I did not go home any more than people who lived a significant distance did. I really did appreciate and enjoy my Swarthmore experience. ARP: Thank you. Could you narrow in, tell me about your understanding of the events of the 1968-1969 year, especially as it relates to admissions policy and the SASS takeover? DBM: Yes. I remember I attended the first meeting, the organizational meeting, for SASS, and did not particularly appreciate the tenor or the tone of it. First of all there were individuals who were not Swarthmore students who were there who essentially organized it, and were telling the black students who attended, ‘don’t speak to white students, don’t speak to anyone, we’ll tell you what to say and what to do.’ And of course, this seemed to go against all the principles and values I had – my parents and my home, and certainly the thought of independent thinking would seem to go against it. It seemed really outrageous for these total strangers to come in and think they had the authority to tell me what to think, to whom I could speak, et cetera et cetera. So I essentially walked out of that first meeting, essentially saying that my own parents, who are paying my tuition, do not presume to tell me what to think and with whom I can associate, and so you have no authority to do that either, and so I did not join SASS, was quite troubled by the seeming intention of it, and so I did not join the organization. I did not participate in the student
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�sit-in in the admissions office. I had a different perspective on what Swarthmore could do in terms of increasing black enrollment. Now, I can’t remember the exact size of the classes at the time, but my entering class in 1965, I think there were 16 people of African descent – as it turned out, in the tradition of the Quaker matchbox, 8 men and 8 women, although the college really couldn’t control that. Obviously they had admitted more who chose to go elsewhere, but 16 people of African descent in that small class seemed significant. They were of varied backgrounds and locations and experiences. And I had no problem with the thought of increasing the enrollment of black students, but what I was concerned about was this feeling that in order to increase black enrollment you automatically had to go into schools where, I guess inner-city schools, and recruit students who may or may not have the kind of background – I mean, to be very honest, Swarthmore at the time and still I believe enjoys this reputation of being an academically elite institution of people who are very committed to and excel in academic work. The presumption that in order to increase your black enrollment you had to recruit from inner city schools seemed very problematic. For one thing, Swarthmore really at the time did not recruit. I mean, I think that Dean Hargadon, who was the dean of admissions, he would go to California. But they never went into the South, they never went into other areas where you would find students who were really very academically prepared to attend Swarthmore. And I think in a sense the presumption that you had to go to inner city schools to increase your enrollment was, in a sense, racist – that there were not black students who existed elsewhere who would have heard of Swarthmore who would be interested in going. And so I thought that was rather a wrongheaded approach. At the same time, of course, with my work on Upward Bound, working with the students from Chester, I realized that there certainly were students almost anywhere who were committed to improving academically and who would be interested in coming to Swarthmore. So this whole idea of going into Harlem or going into Compton and that’s where you were going to recruit seemed unnecessary and frankly kind of stereotyped to me. ARP: Yeah. Just to back up quickly for one second, when was the first SASS meeting that you went to? DBM: It was in 1968, I can’t really recall. And if it wasn’t the first it was among the first because they were still organizing. ARP: OK. So SASS hadn’t existed before 1968? DBM: No. As far as I’m concerned it did not. It certainly was not in existence in ’65 and ’66, and I don’t think it was there in ’67. I really think it was ’68, though I wouldn’t swear to that. I think that if there are materials, other materials might indicate otherwise. But it certainly did not exist in my first couple of years there at Swarthmore. I think it was pretty much a 1968, late ’67 maybe, ’68 phenomenon. ARP: OK. And was the meeting that you went to in the fall of 1968, or the spring? DBM: That I don’t remember. ARP: OK, that’s fine, thank you.
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�DBM: I believe it took place in the dining hall. I’m not sure about that though. But I can’t tell which particular time. I think, because of my decision not to participate, that kind of historic information escaped me. ARP: Yeah, definitely, that makes sense. So, were there changes that you would have liked to see in Swarthmore’s admissions policy, or Swarthmore’s policies towards black students, and how would you have wanted to see that? DBM: Well, I think in a sense it was a question not of change in policy but perhaps of intensity. Certainly if there was a desire to increase black enrollment they could have done that. But again, this idea of having to go into areas and recruit students who might be very promising but clearly had not had the academic background would have created essentially a two-tiered situation, and I didn’t think – in order to increase black enrollment, it was not necessary, and it certainly could lead to problems of its own. I guess everyone could say the admissions policy was by definition a very small school and there were lots of qualified people who did not gain admission. I’m sure a lot of people would have liked to have seen a change in policy, but I think at the time the goal was to increase – not talking about the black enrollment – but the school was going to grow toward a maximum number of I think a little over 1200 or something like that. So again, we’re talking about a very small population. And while admission to college and access to college education for all minority students at the time was of course a very important goal, to say that a school that had this particular orientation had to increase it by a particular percentage number I think might have been problematic. I don’t know that non-negotiable demands for particular increases either percentage wise or in numbers considered all the possible ramifications. Not that I, as a college junior or senior had all the answers, but I thought that there was no room for any kind of debate within SASS, it was much more like what people say, ‘OK, we’re all going to have this united front against, you know, we’re not going to have differences of opinion exposed to the outside, et cetera et cetera.’ Not all black students who were there at Swarthmore joined the organization. ARP: Yeah. So you were involved with Upward Bound. Could you tell me a bit more about your involvement and how that fit into your vision of change? DBM: Let’s see. I think I started working in Upward Bound the summer after my [sophomore] year. Let’s see. My summer after high school graduation I had worked in – this is where I really am very grateful to President Lyndon Baines Johnson’s domestic policies and his War on Poverty because I was in the Head Start program.1 I worked as a non-professional aide, so I was a teacher’s aide with four year olds, which was a really delightful experience, for two years – after my high school senior year and after my freshman year of college. It was after my sophomore year that I went to Upward Bound, and at that time it was an overnight program so the students were there during the week. They went home on the weekends, but we were in charge of them in terms of basic tutoring and work to bring their reading skills up to snuff, exposure to black history, which at that time was absolutely non-existent in the schools. And it was quite a learning experience, dealing with middle school and high school students, some of whom had real desire to learn – I mean, it’s what you get in any normal classroom situation – but what I really became interested in, was the idea of having African American history on a wider
1
Head Start started in 1965 as an early-childhood education summer program for low-income families.
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�exposure, because when I was growing up in the public schools of Philadelphia, of course there was nothing like that. In fact, even when I graduated from Swarthmore in 1969 there were no courses offered in African American history. It wasn’t until I went back to graduate school that I was able to study it professionally. So that was a very important change, and of course that was a consequence, I think a reflection of the interest in and the persistence of African Americans to be included in the curriculum, from high school on. I think that we certainly did have students from Upward Bound who attended Swarthmore successfully. I guess the point was that, with proper background preparation – and interest and determination – yes, black students from almost anywhere could succeed at Swarthmore. But to focus exclusively or primarily on inner city schools was not necessarily, as far as I was concerned, the best approach. ARP: Yeah. You were mentioning curriculum at Swarthmore also. Were there ways that you would have liked to see the curriculum that was taught in Swarthmore classes change? DBM: Well, at that time I was just going through this very Euro-centric curriculum. I think that would have been a wonderful idea. But it was not something that I was thinking about at the time because I myself had not had any courses in African American history or studies. Those kinds of changes are wonderful, those are very important. I mean, I think the more inclusive you can be in a legitimate sense, the better that is for everyone. One of my great satisfactions here is that I teach primarily African American history at the University of Georgia. That would not have been anything one would have foreseen in 1969. ARP: Yeah, definitely. I’ve been going through the faculty minutes, and in one of the meetings from January of 1969 I found – you went to that meeting – and I found a quote where you were saying that if the college were to admit these so-called risk students, they should be including other ethnic minorities and white students. So I have a couple of questions. First of all, do you remember how you ended up going to that meeting? DBM: Well, I think that was where the college essentially shut down after the death of President Smith and there was an effort to try to address the concerns at that point. I went to that meeting, I think my now husband was in attendance at that meeting as well.2 And it was interesting to hear what the faculty had to say. I don’t remember particular individuals. I do remember there was a wide range of professors from – you know, hands off, ‘I’m not your parent, this is not in loco parentis,’ to using the idea of supporting the protest. So that was kind of interesting. Believe me, obviously this was a situation that attracted national attention. And I remember, I think the reporter from Life magazine, I think his name was Paul Good, came to campus, and he did talk to me. But it was clear that his sympathies lay with the students who had been participating in the demonstration. It was just a very interesting experience. [phone rings] Can we stop? [pause] DBM: I’m not sure I remember where we were. ARP: We were talking about the faculty meeting that you attended.
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John Morrow, Swarthmore class of 1966.
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�DBM: Yes, and I think that as a consequence of that my husband wrote a letter, I think that’s the one he wrote, addressing some of the concerns that he had.3 We were of one thought at that point. I think I sent a copy of that entire letter to Dr. Dorsey. It was interesting, I reread that, and I thought, ‘well, that made sense then and it makes sense now.’ I’m pretty much of accord with the issues and concerns that he raised in that. ARP: Yeah. Do you remember how you actually got to be at that meeting? Was it an open meeting, or were you invited, or did you ask to go? DBM: I think it was an open meeting because – and again, I’m very fuzzy on these details – there were no classes, the campus had essentially shut down in terms of class, and so there were meetings and discussion groups and workshops going on to try to assess or understand what was going on but also try I think to reassure the students, and some students attended, not all did. For some reason, I think this one was in the biology lecture hall. I remember that. But otherwise, I can’t remember what happened that got me to go there. I think I was interested in what the administration, what the faculty would have to say, and was certainly interested in what other students would have to say. And there were a variety of opinions voiced there. ARP: Yeah. You mentioned that there were various other black students who weren’t involved with SASS and weren’t involved with the action and may have been opposed to it. Could you talk more about those students and the nature of their opposition? Do you know if there were alternatives that they might have supported? DBM: Well you know, it’s interesting. I think those students who did not participate and – there was no counter-group, like an anti-SASS group, there was nothing like that – a lot of those students just sort of absented themselves, they did not get involved one way or another. And so I don’t think that I could with any legitimacy say what a lot of the other students thought. We did not have discussions. And so I think they withdrew or withheld their participation for a variety of reasons but I am not privy to those. ARP: Yeah. Do you have a sense of how many black students that was, that weren’t involved with SASS? DBM: Hm. That, we could probably do that two ways. I don’t know, is there a membership roll of SASS? ARP: No. I think – we should be able to – DBM: Yeah, that would be interesting. Are there minutes of SASS meetings? ARP: I haven’t seen them. There might be. DBM: OK. Probably the college, unless someone who was involved with it. You know I guess, Clinton Etheridge was the president and I think Sam Shepherd the vice president at that particular time. But there were certainly some very strong black women who were involved in
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Letter from John Morrow, 01/09/1969.
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�the organization and in promoting and supporting it. I don’t know – again, because I wasn’t a member, I couldn’t really say – whether they kept minutes or notes or who might have them if they do exist. Clinton Etheridge might know. ARP: Earlier, you were talking about how when you went to that one SASS meeting, there were students from outside – DBM: Mhm. Well, I don’t know that they were students. There were people from outside. ARP: People from outside. OK, can you talk about a little bit more how you understood their role in SASS? DBM: My point was, if you call a meeting of black Swarthmore students – and I don’t even know if they said they were going to form an organization – what they didn’t say was that there were these people, these individuals who were not Swarthmore students, who not only were present but in some respects tried to take over the meeting, which to me was problematic. And so that in itself was an issue, and then as I said before, they were saying, ‘we will talk and we will speak and you don’t speak individually,’ and I mean, that just to me was outlandish. If this was their modus operandi, I was not really interested in joining anything like that. That’s why I left. And unfortunately, because I left, I am not in a position to say what happened internally. By that time, I know that there were individuals who – have you talked to Don Mizell, for example? ARP: I haven’t, but students in the class will. DBM: OK, I think Sherryl Brown, Michael Graves, Marilyn Holifield, Marilyn Allman, Janette Domingo, Joyce Frisby - I can’t remember names at this point, but there were several who were active in the organization. Pat – I can’t remember Pat’s last name. ARP: I’m sure we can find that. In early January of 1969, SASS sent around a letter asking other black students not to speak in opposition to them.4 Do you remember that? DBM: I don’t remember that. I probably at that point was discounting anything I got from SASS. They may have, I don’t know. ARP: Sure. So after President Smith died, a lot of black students left campus. Did you leave campus at that point? DBM: No. ARP: OK. Do you know, was that only SASS? DBM: I don’t know. ARP: OK. I wanted to ask you more about the Life magazine article that you’re quoted in. Do you mind if I read?
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Letter from SASS dated January 8, attached to John Morrow’s letter.
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�DBM: Please do. ARP: You were quoted there as saying, “A few people in SASS formulate policy and impose it on others. They don’t let people think for themselves, browbeating them and calling them ‘Tom’ and ‘honky.’ I’m just not willing to subordinate my individuality for the common thinking. You make an implicit commitment to education when you choose Swarthmore. SASS disregards the fact that it’s intellectually tougher here. They say there should be just as many blacks as at a state college, whether or not they qualify. That’s reverse paternalism. At the same time, some of them tell cute black chicks: Don’t date white! Then they do it. I get cynical.” DBM: My god, I said that? ARP: They quoted you as saying that. DBM: OK, well. ARP: So I was wondering how you felt or how you feel about how Life was using your words and your perspective? DBM: I think that I probably – that’s a pretty accurate assessment. I don’t think I would have said, ‘I get cynical,’ [nor would I have used such terms as ‘cute black chicks.’] But I think almost everything else there was an accurate reflection of how I felt. I was particularly noting the fact that while, again, the leadership was trying to restrict contact with white people, it was almost as if ‘you don’t talk except through us,’ there were certain men in the organization who didn’t seem to have that problem for themselves. In other words, they were fraternizing with white women on campus even if they were telling other people, ‘you’re not supposed to be doing this kind of thing.’ So that was really quite hypocritical. I was not impressed positively with that. ARP: Yeah, definitely. In that article, they’re using you to put you in a conversation that’s very critical of SASS, and I’m wondering how you felt particularly about your role in that conversation, in that larger national conversation? DBM: One of the things was, I think it was that experience that taught me a valuable lesson that if I give an interview that I always want to have final right of editing or reviewing. I think that – those were not verbatim quotes – but upon reflection some 45 years later, they essentially did represent the way I felt, and I did not feel that it was a problem to be presented as in opposition to what I perceived SASS’ policies were, because I was. I really don’t feel, ‘oh, if I had to do it over again I wouldn’t do it,’ because I was really just expressing at the time the way I felt based on my own personal experience and my own personality and what’s amazing is that, 45 years later, I don’t think I would retract any of that. It was interesting, I don’t know if the reporter went to other people and tried to get them to speak. I don’t know that. I don’t know how he operated. I don’t know if other people did speak and he chose not to use them. I don’t know if I was the only person who was willing to speak. I have no idea about the context in which that came out. But once it occurred, I was neither pleased nor displeased because I could not say that he has
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�completely misrepresented my perspective and my focus, because he hadn’t. But it was obvious that he was setting me up as the one person who did not seem to agree, and that was not the case. ARP: Right. In terms of there being other people – DBM: Other people who’d either, I mean, there are both acts, if not sins, of omission and commission. And by purposefully not participating, by leaving campus, by not identifying one way or another, you still are taking a stand, you still are voicing a perspective or an opinion, and I think that there was probably more diversity of opinion than just me in opposition and everyone else in favor. I don’t think that was the case at all. It was much more nuanced, much more complicated than that. ARP: Yeah, certainly. Those are all the questions that I prepared, but I don’t know if there’s anything else you think it’s important to say in terms of what was happening over that school year or what your perspective on that was. DBM: Yes. As you can tell from many of the questions you asked where I have had to say I don’t remember, I can’t recall. I do remember something very personal that happened in 1968. Aside from the then shock of Dr. King’s assassination in early April, a little over a week after Dr. King’s assassination, John Morrow’s and my engagement was announced in the newspaper, and there was very little response from anybody on campus, except I will always remember that Marilyn Holifield very graciously congratulated me. And at the time, I noted that and I appreciated that, and I understand that Marilyn also gave Dr. Dorsey my name as someone that should be included in her reformulation of what was happening, and I appreciate that today too. ARP: Yeah, thank you. That’s good to hear. DBM: And, anything else. I’ll say this, I’ve often said that at this stage of my life there are two decisions that I made that I do not regret. One is choosing to attend Swarthmore. And the other is saying yes when my husband proposed to me. And in the intervening years, there are lots of decisions I’ve made one way or another, but those two stand out to me as, if I had to do it again, I would do it again. For all of the complexity and all of the issues attending my four years at Swarthmore, it was a very positive experience. I went to it for academic rigor, I certainly got that, and I think it has stood me well in the professorial career that I have chosen. ARP: Thank you. Is there anything else? DBM: Let’s see, Ali. I can’t think of anything. But if I do, I have your phone number, or I could email you. But, this is interesting, as a historian, to look at something that happened 45 years ago as an eyewitness, and of course you always have to adjust for eyewitness accounts and memories. But I was quite interested when you quoted me from that article, because I thought, yeah, I probably did say that, and I certainly stand by that. So, in a sense, how do they say that, ‘that’s my story and I’m sticking to it.’ It’s interesting that I would not say, ‘in the intervening years I have come to feel this that and the other’ – but no, not about that. About other things in life, but not about that.
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�ARP: Yeah, certainly. Well, thank you. DBM: You’re welcome. Addendum, July 21, 2014: ARP: Listening to and reading over this, I would be interested to know if you have anything to say about SASS' demands for Black Studies or a Black Cultural Center. DBM: I did not attend any SASS meetings beyond the first organizational ones, so I do not recall their demands for Black Studies. Given the fact that at the time I taught black history on the Upward Bound Summer programs, I would probably not have taken issue with that particular demand. Given the fact that I have devoted my professorial career to teaching black history I certainly endorse it today. The Black Cultural Center and its segregating potential would have been a different matter in 1969.5
5
The first documented demand for a Black Cultural Center came in July 1969, after Diane Batts Morrow graduated.
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Interview with Diane Batts Morrow, who graduated from Swarthmore College in 1969. She earned her PhD in history from the University of Georgia, and is author of the book Persons of Color and Religious at the Same Time: The Oblate Sisters of Providence, 1828-1860. She now teaches History and African American Studies at the University of Georgia. Interview conducted by Alison Roseberry-Polier, research assistant, on July 15, 2014, at the home of Diane Batts Morrow. The transcription is word-for-word, with the exception of filler words. At the end, there is an addendum written over email the following week. Alison Roseberry-Polier: OK, so, to begin with could you tell me a little bit about your time at Swarthmore, what you were involved in doing, what you spent your time on, just to give me an overview and a sense of what your time was like? Diane Batts Morrow: OK, I will dig deep into the recesses of my brain to recall. I guess it was almost 50 years ago because I graduated 45 years ago. I was a history major at Swarthmore. I think I worked on the school newspaper. I was the circulation department for a while. I wasn’t involved in athletics or anything like that. Let’s see, I early on discovered I wanted to be a history major, and I think for me the biggest intellectual experience at Swarthmore was discovering the huge difference between history as presented at Swarthmore and history as presented in high school. I hated history in high school, and when I got to Swarthmore we were talking about concepts and ideas and people in a new way. It not only made sense, but it made history really important, so I was delighted at that discovery and decided to be a history major early on. I was not particularly active in any clubs or organizations and – let’s see, what did I do when I was there? I was a senior resident my senior year. I did get involved with the Upward Bound program. I was a counselor on the Upward Bound program for my junior and senior years and that was a really important and wonderful experience for me. Other than that, I don’t really have a whole lot to say. Classes were good, I had friends, and although I lived in Philadelphia, I stayed on campus, and I remember distinctly that it cost exactly one dollar to go home on the Media local. It was as if I lived much farther away because I did not go home any more than people who lived a significant distance did. I really did appreciate and enjoy my Swarthmore experience. ARP: Thank you. Could you narrow in, tell me about your understanding of the events of the 1968-1969 year, especially as it relates to admissions policy and the SASS takeover? DBM: Yes. I remember I attended the first meeting, the organizational meeting, for SASS, and did not particularly appreciate the tenor or the tone of it. First of all there were individuals who were not Swarthmore students who were there who essentially organized it, and were telling the black students who attended, ‘don’t speak to white students, don’t speak to anyone, we’ll tell you what to say and what to do.’ And of course, this seemed to go against all the principles and values I had – my parents and my home, and certainly the thought of independent thinking would seem to go against it. It seemed really outrageous for these total strangers to come in and think they had the authority to tell me what to think, to whom I could speak, et cetera et cetera. So I essentially walked out of that first meeting, essentially saying that my own parents, who are paying my tuition, do not presume to tell me what to think and with whom I can associate, and so you have no authority to do that either, and so I did not join SASS, was quite troubled by the seeming intention of it, and so I did not join the organization. I did not participate in the student
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�sit-in in the admissions office. I had a different perspective on what Swarthmore could do in terms of increasing black enrollment. Now, I can’t remember the exact size of the classes at the time, but my entering class in 1965, I think there were 16 people of African descent – as it turned out, in the tradition of the Quaker matchbox, 8 men and 8 women, although the college really couldn’t control that. Obviously they had admitted more who chose to go elsewhere, but 16 people of African descent in that small class seemed significant. They were of varied backgrounds and locations and experiences. And I had no problem with the thought of increasing the enrollment of black students, but what I was concerned about was this feeling that in order to increase black enrollment you automatically had to go into schools where, I guess inner-city schools, and recruit students who may or may not have the kind of background – I mean, to be very honest, Swarthmore at the time and still I believe enjoys this reputation of being an academically elite institution of people who are very committed to and excel in academic work. The presumption that in order to increase your black enrollment you had to recruit from inner city schools seemed very problematic. For one thing, Swarthmore really at the time did not recruit. I mean, I think that Dean Hargadon, who was the dean of admissions, he would go to California. But they never went into the South, they never went into other areas where you would find students who were really very academically prepared to attend Swarthmore. And I think in a sense the presumption that you had to go to inner city schools to increase your enrollment was, in a sense, racist – that there were not black students who existed elsewhere who would have heard of Swarthmore who would be interested in going. And so I thought that was rather a wrongheaded approach. At the same time, of course, with my work on Upward Bound, working with the students from Chester, I realized that there certainly were students almost anywhere who were committed to improving academically and who would be interested in coming to Swarthmore. So this whole idea of going into Harlem or going into Compton and that’s where you were going to recruit seemed unnecessary and frankly kind of stereotyped to me. ARP: Yeah. Just to back up quickly for one second, when was the first SASS meeting that you went to? DBM: It was in 1968, I can’t really recall. And if it wasn’t the first it was among the first because they were still organizing. ARP: OK. So SASS hadn’t existed before 1968? DBM: No. As far as I’m concerned it did not. It certainly was not in existence in ’65 and ’66, and I don’t think it was there in ’67. I really think it was ’68, though I wouldn’t swear to that. I think that if there are materials, other materials might indicate otherwise. But it certainly did not exist in my first couple of years there at Swarthmore. I think it was pretty much a 1968, late ’67 maybe, ’68 phenomenon. ARP: OK. And was the meeting that you went to in the fall of 1968, or the spring? DBM: That I don’t remember. ARP: OK, that’s fine, thank you.
2
�DBM: I believe it took place in the dining hall. I’m not sure about that though. But I can’t tell which particular time. I think, because of my decision not to participate, that kind of historic information escaped me. ARP: Yeah, definitely, that makes sense. So, were there changes that you would have liked to see in Swarthmore’s admissions policy, or Swarthmore’s policies towards black students, and how would you have wanted to see that? DBM: Well, I think in a sense it was a question not of change in policy but perhaps of intensity. Certainly if there was a desire to increase black enrollment they could have done that. But again, this idea of having to go into areas and recruit students who might be very promising but clearly had not had the academic background would have created essentially a two-tiered situation, and I didn’t think – in order to increase black enrollment, it was not necessary, and it certainly could lead to problems of its own. I guess everyone could say the admissions policy was by definition a very small school and there were lots of qualified people who did not gain admission. I’m sure a lot of people would have liked to have seen a change in policy, but I think at the time the goal was to increase – not talking about the black enrollment – but the school was going to grow toward a maximum number of I think a little over 1200 or something like that. So again, we’re talking about a very small population. And while admission to college and access to college education for all minority students at the time was of course a very important goal, to say that a school that had this particular orientation had to increase it by a particular percentage number I think might have been problematic. I don’t know that non-negotiable demands for particular increases either percentage wise or in numbers considered all the possible ramifications. Not that I, as a college junior or senior had all the answers, but I thought that there was no room for any kind of debate within SASS, it was much more like what people say, ‘OK, we’re all going to have this united front against, you know, we’re not going to have differences of opinion exposed to the outside, et cetera et cetera.’ Not all black students who were there at Swarthmore joined the organization. ARP: Yeah. So you were involved with Upward Bound. Could you tell me a bit more about your involvement and how that fit into your vision of change? DBM: Let’s see. I think I started working in Upward Bound the summer after my [sophomore] year. Let’s see. My summer after high school graduation I had worked in – this is where I really am very grateful to President Lyndon Baines Johnson’s domestic policies and his War on Poverty because I was in the Head Start program.1 I worked as a non-professional aide, so I was a teacher’s aide with four year olds, which was a really delightful experience, for two years – after my high school senior year and after my freshman year of college. It was after my sophomore year that I went to Upward Bound, and at that time it was an overnight program so the students were there during the week. They went home on the weekends, but we were in charge of them in terms of basic tutoring and work to bring their reading skills up to snuff, exposure to black history, which at that time was absolutely non-existent in the schools. And it was quite a learning experience, dealing with middle school and high school students, some of whom had real desire to learn – I mean, it’s what you get in any normal classroom situation – but what I really became interested in, was the idea of having African American history on a wider
1
Head Start started in 1965 as an early-childhood education summer program for low-income families.
3
�exposure, because when I was growing up in the public schools of Philadelphia, of course there was nothing like that. In fact, even when I graduated from Swarthmore in 1969 there were no courses offered in African American history. It wasn’t until I went back to graduate school that I was able to study it professionally. So that was a very important change, and of course that was a consequence, I think a reflection of the interest in and the persistence of African Americans to be included in the curriculum, from high school on. I think that we certainly did have students from Upward Bound who attended Swarthmore successfully. I guess the point was that, with proper background preparation – and interest and determination – yes, black students from almost anywhere could succeed at Swarthmore. But to focus exclusively or primarily on inner city schools was not necessarily, as far as I was concerned, the best approach. ARP: Yeah. You were mentioning curriculum at Swarthmore also. Were there ways that you would have liked to see the curriculum that was taught in Swarthmore classes change? DBM: Well, at that time I was just going through this very Euro-centric curriculum. I think that would have been a wonderful idea. But it was not something that I was thinking about at the time because I myself had not had any courses in African American history or studies. Those kinds of changes are wonderful, those are very important. I mean, I think the more inclusive you can be in a legitimate sense, the better that is for everyone. One of my great satisfactions here is that I teach primarily African American history at the University of Georgia. That would not have been anything one would have foreseen in 1969. ARP: Yeah, definitely. I’ve been going through the faculty minutes, and in one of the meetings from January of 1969 I found – you went to that meeting – and I found a quote where you were saying that if the college were to admit these so-called risk students, they should be including other ethnic minorities and white students. So I have a couple of questions. First of all, do you remember how you ended up going to that meeting? DBM: Well, I think that was where the college essentially shut down after the death of President Smith and there was an effort to try to address the concerns at that point. I went to that meeting, I think my now husband was in attendance at that meeting as well.2 And it was interesting to hear what the faculty had to say. I don’t remember particular individuals. I do remember there was a wide range of professors from – you know, hands off, ‘I’m not your parent, this is not in loco parentis,’ to using the idea of supporting the protest. So that was kind of interesting. Believe me, obviously this was a situation that attracted national attention. And I remember, I think the reporter from Life magazine, I think his name was Paul Good, came to campus, and he did talk to me. But it was clear that his sympathies lay with the students who had been participating in the demonstration. It was just a very interesting experience. [phone rings] Can we stop? [pause] DBM: I’m not sure I remember where we were. ARP: We were talking about the faculty meeting that you attended.
2
John Morrow, Swarthmore class of 1966.
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�DBM: Yes, and I think that as a consequence of that my husband wrote a letter, I think that’s the one he wrote, addressing some of the concerns that he had.3 We were of one thought at that point. I think I sent a copy of that entire letter to Dr. Dorsey. It was interesting, I reread that, and I thought, ‘well, that made sense then and it makes sense now.’ I’m pretty much of accord with the issues and concerns that he raised in that. ARP: Yeah. Do you remember how you actually got to be at that meeting? Was it an open meeting, or were you invited, or did you ask to go? DBM: I think it was an open meeting because – and again, I’m very fuzzy on these details – there were no classes, the campus had essentially shut down in terms of class, and so there were meetings and discussion groups and workshops going on to try to assess or understand what was going on but also try I think to reassure the students, and some students attended, not all did. For some reason, I think this one was in the biology lecture hall. I remember that. But otherwise, I can’t remember what happened that got me to go there. I think I was interested in what the administration, what the faculty would have to say, and was certainly interested in what other students would have to say. And there were a variety of opinions voiced there. ARP: Yeah. You mentioned that there were various other black students who weren’t involved with SASS and weren’t involved with the action and may have been opposed to it. Could you talk more about those students and the nature of their opposition? Do you know if there were alternatives that they might have supported? DBM: Well you know, it’s interesting. I think those students who did not participate and – there was no counter-group, like an anti-SASS group, there was nothing like that – a lot of those students just sort of absented themselves, they did not get involved one way or another. And so I don’t think that I could with any legitimacy say what a lot of the other students thought. We did not have discussions. And so I think they withdrew or withheld their participation for a variety of reasons but I am not privy to those. ARP: Yeah. Do you have a sense of how many black students that was, that weren’t involved with SASS? DBM: Hm. That, we could probably do that two ways. I don’t know, is there a membership roll of SASS? ARP: No. I think – we should be able to – DBM: Yeah, that would be interesting. Are there minutes of SASS meetings? ARP: I haven’t seen them. There might be. DBM: OK. Probably the college, unless someone who was involved with it. You know I guess, Clinton Etheridge was the president and I think Sam Shepherd the vice president at that particular time. But there were certainly some very strong black women who were involved in
3
Letter from John Morrow, 01/09/1969.
5
�the organization and in promoting and supporting it. I don’t know – again, because I wasn’t a member, I couldn’t really say – whether they kept minutes or notes or who might have them if they do exist. Clinton Etheridge might know. ARP: Earlier, you were talking about how when you went to that one SASS meeting, there were students from outside – DBM: Mhm. Well, I don’t know that they were students. There were people from outside. ARP: People from outside. OK, can you talk about a little bit more how you understood their role in SASS? DBM: My point was, if you call a meeting of black Swarthmore students – and I don’t even know if they said they were going to form an organization – what they didn’t say was that there were these people, these individuals who were not Swarthmore students, who not only were present but in some respects tried to take over the meeting, which to me was problematic. And so that in itself was an issue, and then as I said before, they were saying, ‘we will talk and we will speak and you don’t speak individually,’ and I mean, that just to me was outlandish. If this was their modus operandi, I was not really interested in joining anything like that. That’s why I left. And unfortunately, because I left, I am not in a position to say what happened internally. By that time, I know that there were individuals who – have you talked to Don Mizell, for example? ARP: I haven’t, but students in the class will. DBM: OK, I think Sherryl Brown, Michael Graves, Marilyn Holifield, Marilyn Allman, Janette Domingo, Joyce Frisby - I can’t remember names at this point, but there were several who were active in the organization. Pat – I can’t remember Pat’s last name. ARP: I’m sure we can find that. In early January of 1969, SASS sent around a letter asking other black students not to speak in opposition to them.4 Do you remember that? DBM: I don’t remember that. I probably at that point was discounting anything I got from SASS. They may have, I don’t know. ARP: Sure. So after President Smith died, a lot of black students left campus. Did you leave campus at that point? DBM: No. ARP: OK. Do you know, was that only SASS? DBM: I don’t know. ARP: OK. I wanted to ask you more about the Life magazine article that you’re quoted in. Do you mind if I read?
4
Letter from SASS dated January 8, attached to John Morrow’s letter.
6
�DBM: Please do. ARP: You were quoted there as saying, “A few people in SASS formulate policy and impose it on others. They don’t let people think for themselves, browbeating them and calling them ‘Tom’ and ‘honky.’ I’m just not willing to subordinate my individuality for the common thinking. You make an implicit commitment to education when you choose Swarthmore. SASS disregards the fact that it’s intellectually tougher here. They say there should be just as many blacks as at a state college, whether or not they qualify. That’s reverse paternalism. At the same time, some of them tell cute black chicks: Don’t date white! Then they do it. I get cynical.” DBM: My god, I said that? ARP: They quoted you as saying that. DBM: OK, well. ARP: So I was wondering how you felt or how you feel about how Life was using your words and your perspective? DBM: I think that I probably – that’s a pretty accurate assessment. I don’t think I would have said, ‘I get cynical,’ [nor would I have used such terms as ‘cute black chicks.’] But I think almost everything else there was an accurate reflection of how I felt. I was particularly noting the fact that while, again, the leadership was trying to restrict contact with white people, it was almost as if ‘you don’t talk except through us,’ there were certain men in the organization who didn’t seem to have that problem for themselves. In other words, they were fraternizing with white women on campus even if they were telling other people, ‘you’re not supposed to be doing this kind of thing.’ So that was really quite hypocritical. I was not impressed positively with that. ARP: Yeah, definitely. In that article, they’re using you to put you in a conversation that’s very critical of SASS, and I’m wondering how you felt particularly about your role in that conversation, in that larger national conversation? DBM: One of the things was, I think it was that experience that taught me a valuable lesson that if I give an interview that I always want to have final right of editing or reviewing. I think that – those were not verbatim quotes – but upon reflection some 45 years later, they essentially did represent the way I felt, and I did not feel that it was a problem to be presented as in opposition to what I perceived SASS’ policies were, because I was. I really don’t feel, ‘oh, if I had to do it over again I wouldn’t do it,’ because I was really just expressing at the time the way I felt based on my own personal experience and my own personality and what’s amazing is that, 45 years later, I don’t think I would retract any of that. It was interesting, I don’t know if the reporter went to other people and tried to get them to speak. I don’t know that. I don’t know how he operated. I don’t know if other people did speak and he chose not to use them. I don’t know if I was the only person who was willing to speak. I have no idea about the context in which that came out. But once it occurred, I was neither pleased nor displeased because I could not say that he has
7
�completely misrepresented my perspective and my focus, because he hadn’t. But it was obvious that he was setting me up as the one person who did not seem to agree, and that was not the case. ARP: Right. In terms of there being other people – DBM: Other people who’d either, I mean, there are both acts, if not sins, of omission and commission. And by purposefully not participating, by leaving campus, by not identifying one way or another, you still are taking a stand, you still are voicing a perspective or an opinion, and I think that there was probably more diversity of opinion than just me in opposition and everyone else in favor. I don’t think that was the case at all. It was much more nuanced, much more complicated than that. ARP: Yeah, certainly. Those are all the questions that I prepared, but I don’t know if there’s anything else you think it’s important to say in terms of what was happening over that school year or what your perspective on that was. DBM: Yes. As you can tell from many of the questions you asked where I have had to say I don’t remember, I can’t recall. I do remember something very personal that happened in 1968. Aside from the then shock of Dr. King’s assassination in early April, a little over a week after Dr. King’s assassination, John Morrow’s and my engagement was announced in the newspaper, and there was very little response from anybody on campus, except I will always remember that Marilyn Holifield very graciously congratulated me. And at the time, I noted that and I appreciated that, and I understand that Marilyn also gave Dr. Dorsey my name as someone that should be included in her reformulation of what was happening, and I appreciate that today too. ARP: Yeah, thank you. That’s good to hear. DBM: And, anything else. I’ll say this, I’ve often said that at this stage of my life there are two decisions that I made that I do not regret. One is choosing to attend Swarthmore. And the other is saying yes when my husband proposed to me. And in the intervening years, there are lots of decisions I’ve made one way or another, but those two stand out to me as, if I had to do it again, I would do it again. For all of the complexity and all of the issues attending my four years at Swarthmore, it was a very positive experience. I went to it for academic rigor, I certainly got that, and I think it has stood me well in the professorial career that I have chosen. ARP: Thank you. Is there anything else? DBM: Let’s see, Ali. I can’t think of anything. But if I do, I have your phone number, or I could email you. But, this is interesting, as a historian, to look at something that happened 45 years ago as an eyewitness, and of course you always have to adjust for eyewitness accounts and memories. But I was quite interested when you quoted me from that article, because I thought, yeah, I probably did say that, and I certainly stand by that. So, in a sense, how do they say that, ‘that’s my story and I’m sticking to it.’ It’s interesting that I would not say, ‘in the intervening years I have come to feel this that and the other’ – but no, not about that. About other things in life, but not about that.
8
�ARP: Yeah, certainly. Well, thank you. DBM: You’re welcome. Addendum, July 21, 2014: ARP: Listening to and reading over this, I would be interested to know if you have anything to say about SASS' demands for Black Studies or a Black Cultural Center. DBM: I did not attend any SASS meetings beyond the first organizational ones, so I do not recall their demands for Black Studies. Given the fact that at the time I taught black history on the Upward Bound Summer programs, I would probably not have taken issue with that particular demand. Given the fact that I have devoted my professorial career to teaching black history I certainly endorse it today. The Black Cultural Center and its segregating potential would have been a different matter in 1969.5
5
The first documented demand for a Black Cultural Center came in July 1969, after Diane Batts Morrow graduated.
9
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Audio files, transcriptions and photographs documenting the interviews of Swarthmore College alumni, former faculty, and community activists who played an active role in the Black activism at Swarthmore College from 1968 to 1972.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Black Liberation 1969 Research Team
Text
A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Diane Batts Morrow Interview Transcription
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
07/15/2014
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
PDF
Creator
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Ali Roseberry-Polier
Diane Batts Morrow
1969 sit-in
Black admissions
Black Cultural Center
Black Studies
Clinton Etheridge
Diane Batts (Morrow)
John Morrow
Marilyn Holifield
Sam Shepard
Samuel Jordan Jr.
-
http://s3.amazonaws.com/sc-lib-ds-bl1969/original/ad9d7681c163bf4b5e806cd40999a472.jpg
b5fa30b74a111f76af43c9e94e37bf23
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
The Swarthmore College Halcyon
Description
An account of the resource
This is a collection of photos of black students at Swarthmore from 1968 - 1972. The photos have been gathered from the Swarthmore College Halcyon, the College's yearbook. See also, the Black at Swarthmore photo collection and the Exhibit on Black Student Life.
Note: A few documents in this collection are not photographs: the academic calendar for the 1969 school year and some narrative text from the 1969 Halcyon.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Swarthmore College Halcyon
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1966-1970
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Sam Shepard
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Halcyon
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Swarthmore College
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1966
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
JPG
Sam Shepard