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                <text>During her interview, Rosalind Plummer (Ford) refers to artist &lt;a href="http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-13582880" target="_blank"&gt;Gil Scott-Heron&lt;/a&gt;, whose legacy includes the composition "&lt;a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGaRtqrlGy8" target="_blank"&gt;The Revolution Will Not Be Televised&lt;/a&gt;"</text>
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                    <text>	&#13;  

Robert	&#13;  Woodson	&#13;  Interview	&#13;  1	&#13;   Black Liberation 1969: Black Studies in History, Theory and Praxis

An interview with Robert Woodson (RW) conducted by Maria Mejia (MM) and Alison Roseberry-Polier (ARP) in Washington, D.C. on June 24, 2014. This transcription was written by Maria Mejia, and has been edited for clarity. Mr. Woodson served as the Executive Director of the Media Fellowship House in Media, PA from 1967 to 1969. Through this position and his work as a community activist in the area, Mr. Woodson met members of the Swarthmore Afro-American Student Society (SASS). He reports helping SASS members plan the sit-in at the Swarthmore College Admissions Office in Parrish Hall. Mr. Woodson and his colleagues supported SASS throughout the sit-in, which started on January 9, 1969, and invited the group to stay at the Media Fellowship House when they called a moratorium on January 16 following the death of President Courtney Smith. Mr. Woodson remained involved with the protest until SASS returned to campus after President Smith’s memorial service, held on January 20, 1969. MM: This summer we’re collecting materials, collecting research, interviewing people such as yourself that were involved – RW: This is your summer employment? MM: Yes. RW: And yours? ARP: Yes. RW: Okay. Where are you from? MM: I’m from New York City. ARP: I’m also from New York City. RW: Okay. ARP: I just graduated, so I’m working as Dr. Dorsey’s research assistant this summer. RW: Okay. MM: This summer we’re going to create an archive of primary source materials, interviews, and first-hand accounts [about the activism of Black Swarthmore College students from 1968 to 1972]. In the fall there’s going to be a class, taught by Dr. Dorsey, that’s going to focus on this event [the 1969 sit-in]. Students are going to go through the materials that we put together, and create their own historical narratives of what happened based on these primary source documents.

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Robert	&#13;  Woodson	&#13;  Interview	&#13;  2	&#13;  

RW: Okay. Where do you want to start? MM: Well, do you have any more questions about the class or about – RW: Is the purpose to just reconstruct [the protest of 1969]? I think it [this history] lay dormant for a long time. It was probably the only university activity that wasn’t written up. It was covered extensively in Life magazine1 and there were some other newspaper [inaudible], but there’s been nothing on the part of Swarthmore, I don't think. MM: Exactly. RW: Even acknowledging that it happened. MM: Exactly. Our college is celebrating 150 years and Dr. Dorsey, along with some of her colleagues, thought that this was a really important part of Swarthmore’s history that needed to resurface or needed to be taught to current students of the College. RW: It was a shock at the time that this was happening at Swarthmore, that’s why there was an air of disbelief on the part of a lot of people and supporters of Swarthmore. They thought they were above the fray. ARP: Yeah. RW: That’s why it was amazing to see the response to it. MM: Our first question is: through your work in Chester and as the Director of the Media Fellowship House, you connected with the students who formed the Swarthmore Afro-American Student Society, also known as SASS. Just to start off, how do you remember your relationships with the Black Swarthmore students during that time period? RW: Well, I was very active in helping [with] the civil rights demonstrations and activities in … West Chester, Pennsylvania, Media and Chester. But Chester was the real center of activity and the SASS students were very much involved in helping out in the Chester low-income community. They were mentoring kids, bringing some of them on campus, and they really got themselves deeply involved in the life of the community. So they had established some real, strong bonds. But they were also very active with the service personnel on campus: the janitors and the people who worked in the kitchen, and embraced them almost as a part of it [the protest]. They had a real solid relationship with the students, and I met them through these relationships because I had been serving low-income leaders. Part of my work in civil rights wasn’t just to confront racism but [to] confront challenges within low-income communities, which I thought was a shortcoming of the Civil Rights Movement. Because it concentrated almost exclusively on 	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;   1	&#13;  A	&#13;  reference	&#13;  to	&#13;  the	&#13;  Life	&#13;  magazine	&#13;  piece	&#13;  “Requiem	&#13;  for	&#13;  Courtney	&#13;  Smith”	&#13;  written	&#13;  by	&#13;  Paul	&#13;   Good	&#13;  and	&#13;  published	&#13;  on	&#13;  May	&#13;  9,	&#13;  1969.	&#13;  	&#13;  

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Robert	&#13;  Woodson	&#13;  Interview	&#13;  3	&#13;  

race at the expense, sometimes, of overlooking non-racial problems that existed in the community. I was involved in that and that’s how I met the SASS students. MM: At some point the SASS students approached you about what they were planning to do. Can you tell us about those early planning meetings? How did you guide them through those early stages? RW: Well, when they first came to me and told me what their plans were, I said to them that they’re welcome to use my office as a staging area and a place to meet and organize it. I just gave them some guidance. I said that “if you’re going to do this, it’s important to do it with dignity and non-violently, so that the issue stays focused and not on your abhorrent behavior” [laughing]. And I told them at the time that “once this becomes public, there will be people who will be drawn to you,” would try to use them [SASS] for their own purposes in the name of helping them [SASS] and that it was very important for them [SASS] to remain separate from them [outsiders] and keep them away from it [the protest]. And I would help with that. That was my advice to the students. The whole takeover was coordinated out of my office because I remember we actually had a board in there where – [it said] when the takeover was supposed to occur, what was to happen, who was supposed to do it, and then, what was the occupation strategy. How were the students going to be fed? We arranged for grassroots people in Chester to cook and provide meals that were brought in everyday and passed through the window. Also, I set up a command center at my office so that the parents of the students had a place to call and stay abreast of activities so that they would know that their children were safe and that they [students] were being responsible. My staff and I at the office, we played that role at the time. During the negotiations, we just played a back-room role with them [SASS], but they [students] were the ones who – and we helped them shape their demands. But, essentially, all we did was provide the framework; the content of what the demands were and all of that strictly [came from] the students. We just served [in] a servant role, and as to protect them. When the announcement was made, we also helped with the coordination of the press releases to make sure that every aspect of it reflected these principles: of not attacking people, but attacking issues, and also of being respectful during negotiations. Also, to incorporate the needs of non-students in this as well - the kitchen personnel and whatnot. The students had also developed relationships [with the staff] because they used to do the income tax returns for some of the service personnel on campus. That’s kind of the background about how we – the flow between us, and the parents. I talked to a lot of parents, had everyone’s phone number. The parents had the phone number at the Media Fellowship House. We were like the command center. MM: You said that SASS members were the ones [who] wrote the demands, but that you helped them [SASS] shape them [the demands]. Can you tell us more about what was your opinion of the goals that motivated SASS? RW: They were all noble. Asmarom Lagesse was the only Black faculty member. He was Ethiopian. An anthropologist, I believe. And they wanted more Black faculty. They wanted Black administrators. Just to desegregate Swarthmore [laughing]. Which was what everybody was demanding at the time, to desegregate the campus. They wanted more done to attract more

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Robert	&#13;  Woodson	&#13;  Interview	&#13;  4	&#13;  

minority students. They were not asking for a lowering of standards, they were just asking [for Swarthmore College] to be more inclusive. I think they were asking for scholarships for students. I’m not clear about the details, it’s been a long time, but I think that was the general gist of it. I mean they were not unreasonable demands. ARP: [whispering to MM] Do you want to go ahead with the next question? MM: Okay. You were talking about your office being the command center. Can you tell us a little bit more about how that worked logistically, about your office helping [to] coordinate the communication between students and their parents. Because they [students] were in there [Parrish Hall] for some time, and there were things happening outside. We heard that one young woman had a relative die in a standoff2 – RW: Killed. Yeah. I had spent some time in California, and I knew some of the people involved in that incident. I spent three summers before, I spent a whole summer with activists groups in Pasadena, California. I knew all of the activists out in Los Angeles, so I knew a lot of people out there. And there were some real severe differences between the Us Organization, run by Ron Karenga [Ronald McKinley Everett, also known as Maulana Karenga] and Huey Newton’s group, the Black Panther Party. There were severe differences, so it got – I talked to Clinton Etheridge not too long ago, and he reminded me of the name of the young lady [Ruth Wilson], he knows her. Her cousin was a student at UCLA [University	&#13;  of	&#13;  California,	&#13;  Los	&#13;  Angeles], and he was the one who was shot to death on campus. The mother called me, as soon as it happened, and asked me if I would get over to the campus to have the daughter – her first-cousin – call the mother before she [Ruth Wilson] saw it on the news. And as I rushed over to campus, it was just being reported on the news. She lost it. She saw pictures of her cousin being carried out, shot. I just comforted her, and then we arranged for her mom to come down and pick her up. We arranged for her to get to the airport, so that she would get home to be with her family. So that was one unfortunate situation, but that was the role we played. The mother had no other way of calling, so the mother and father called us and we rushed over there and told them what happened. But that was the role we were playing: to comfort in that situation. MM: When President Courtney Smith suffered a fatal heart attack, SASS ended the occupation, they left campus, and they stayed at the Media Fellowship House. This is correct? RW: Yes. But even before that, I think there’s something else you should know. There were two groups that tried to almost use SASS to turn that demonstration into something else, and that was the Weather Underground [the Weather Underground Organization]– they were on campus, a White radical leftist group – and also the Black Panthers tried to come and coopt it. But I brought a friend of mine, Jim Woodruff [Reverend James Woodruff] – he was an Episcopal priest, a very well known Black Episcopal priest and a very forceful leader in the Black Power movement in 	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;   2	&#13;  The	&#13;  standoff	&#13;  referenced	&#13;  was	&#13;  a	&#13;  confrontation	&#13;  between	&#13;  the	&#13;  Us	&#13;  Organization	&#13;  and	&#13;  the	&#13;  Black	&#13;   Panther	&#13;  Party	&#13;  that	&#13;  took	&#13;  place	&#13;  on	&#13;  January	&#13;  17,	&#13;  1969	&#13;  at	&#13;  the	&#13;  University	&#13;  of	&#13;  California,	&#13;  Los	&#13;   Angeles.	&#13;  During	&#13;  the	&#13;  gunfight,	&#13;  two	&#13;  people	&#13;  were	&#13;  killed:	&#13;  John	&#13;  Huggins	&#13;  and	&#13;  Alprentice	&#13;   “Bunchy”	&#13;  Carter.	&#13;  The	&#13;  young	&#13;  woman	&#13;  was	&#13;  a	&#13;  Swarthmore	&#13;  student	&#13;  and	&#13;  SASS	&#13;  member,	&#13;   identified	&#13;  as	&#13;  Ruth	&#13;  Wilson,	&#13;  who	&#13;  was	&#13;  related	&#13;  to	&#13;  one	&#13;  of	&#13;  the	&#13;  victims.	&#13;  

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Robert	&#13;  Woodson	&#13;  Interview	&#13;  5	&#13;  

Philadelphia who was a good friend of mine. To kind of blunt that [outside influence], I brought him on campus and he met the students early on. He was just well known and well respected by everybody, so Jim and I agreed that we had to protect the students from both the Panthers and the Weather Underground. The students listened to us and told them [the Weather Underground and the Black Panther Party] that they [SASS] did not want their [the outsiders] help. The students just told them they didn’t want their help because they [outsiders] really wanted to turn it [the protest] into something violent. That’s what they wanted, but the students listened to us and just kept it that way [non-violent]. Then, when Courtney Smith died – I think he was 46 years old and he had the heart attack – the students called and said, “what should we do?” Well, first of all, we said that we’re going to call a moratorium. It’s not ending, but there was to be a moratorium. We wrote a press release that said, “we mourn for the death of Courtney Smith, the way we mourn for the deaths of kids in the inner city.” I think there were some members of the football team, and others, who really wanted to take violent action against the students. To neutralize that, I called a lot of the fellows in the community to come up and protect the students. We said to them, “it’s important for you to leave the facility and come to my office,” that way [we could] just keep tensions low. Rather than having the fellows from Chester come, and perhaps get into a violent confrontation with the [White] students, it would be better for the [SASS] students to leave. So, I arranged for ten cars to come up – caravan on campus. Two of the cars collected the luggage and the other eight - the students filled those. But these men also made certain that there were no confrontations between the student athletes and the young people [of SASS]. They made sure they were protected. So we caravan out. We also said to them, “it is important to leave the office the way you found it;” and the students cleaned it, put everything back in place, and left. Of course, the photographers rushed in and the Philadelphia Daily News reported that the students had trashed the office. So it was first reported that they trashed it, which was a lie. But then other television stations and others came out and corrected it. They showed pictures of everything in order. We went into a retreat for about two days, where we had some sessions talking about where do we go from here, and the state of the movement, etc. I remember saying to Clint [Clinton Etheridge] and others – the question is do they go to the memorial service – and I said, “it is absolutely necessary for you to show your respect and go to the memorial service.” So I picked up Clint and - Don Mizell? Yeah? MM: That’s his name, yeah [laughing]. RW: Yes, Don Mizell. I think he was a cousin to my first wife. MM: Oh, really? [laughing]. RW: Yes, Don Mizell is my first wife’s cousin. I said, “I will come and take you to [the memorial service]” – because Don [Mizell] was really one of the leaders and Clint was the public spokesperson. Don [Mizell] had more of an organization personality. I remember taking them to the memorial service and sitting in the front row. We said we would not comment to the press, but that we would just have a presence there. And just having their presence there really won over a lot of students. A lot of the bitterness and rancor that was attending a wrath of the word of his [President Courtney Smith] death was just really neutralized by Don Mizell and Clint coming

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Robert	&#13;  Woodson	&#13;  Interview	&#13;  6	&#13;  

to the memorial service, and that sort of set the tone. A lot of students were coming up, praising them for coming to the memorial service, and showing the respect for Courtney Smith. Talking about how they mourned him and wished only the best for his family, and whatnot. After that, my role just kind of ended with the students. I don’t think they took up the occupation again, but I think negotiations continued between the students and the faculty, and some changes were made. I sort of ended my participation right after that, when Courtney Smith died. But my participation was very active from the beginning, during the prelude, and at the end. MM: Just to backtrack a little bit, so that I can understand what happened right after Courtney Smith’s death: how many students left campus with the cars that you organized? RW: All of them. MM: All of them? RW: All of the students. MM: All of the SASS students or all of the Black students? RW: All of SASS. That’s a good question. I was only involved with the SASS students. Most of the Black students were in SASS. There were like four or five who refused, but then the White students distanced themselves from those students and that kind of radicalized them. I remember four [Black] students were in the lunchroom – I was told – and White students asked them why they weren’t with SASS. And they [Black students] said, oh they don’t agree with SASS, so they [White students] just got up and left them because they said, “oh, we can’t respect you if you can’t even respect your own folks.” So that caused some of those four students to join SASS at that point. I mean, there weren’t that many Black students on campus at the time, so I think all of them were part of the demonstration. There may have been one or two who weren’t, but I don't recall. I think that 99% of the Black students were a part of SASS. MM: So – RW: If they were not involved, they were supporters. MM: Sorry to interrupt. So, all of the SASS students leave campus, and only Don Mizell and Clinton Etheridge attend the memorial service? RW: Yes. They were there to represent SASS. Just the two of them came to it [the memorial service]. We didn’t want to create a spectacle of all the students coming on down. We just felt that the leadership needed to be represented, so they [Don Mizell and Clinton Etheridge] were representing all the students. MM: And did you stay with them throughout that event? RW: Yeah, I drove them there and stayed with them – stayed in the background. I never made any public statements. That wasn’t my role. They were the ones who engineered it. They were

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Robert	&#13;  Woodson	&#13;  Interview	&#13;  7	&#13;  

the ones who shaped it, [and] provided the content. I just supplied logistical support and tactical suggestions, and that’s all - just kind of coaching them on the tone. Acting to protect them, because they had no way of knowing about the Weathermen [colloquial name for the Weather Underground Organization]. But having Jim Woodruff there served to reduce any possibility of confrontation between us and those two groups [the Weather Underground and the Black Panther Party]. We had a real strong following in the community - I did - and Jim Woodruff was a very influential social force in Philadelphia at the time. A lot of people listened to him. ARP: Just to back up quickly, were the SASS members who didn’t go to the [memorial] service still at the Media Fellowship House or were they back on campus? RW: Yes, they were at the Media Fellowship House. All of them - all of their belongings, their clothes and personal effects. The Media Fellowship House at the time had a large recreation room where there were showers and, because it was Quaker-oriented, it was really built to house. It was an old mansion that was modified, so it had a huge dining hall with bathrooms and showers to accommodate the weekend work campers who came in from around the country. So the facility was just perfectly suited for them. ARP: Yeah RW: We just put sleeping bags all over the floor, everyone had plans to sleep and it was sanitary. We supplied meals for them. ARP: How long were they there for? RW: I would say four or five days. Until the memorial service was over, and then right after that they began to move back on campus.3 Maybe two or three days. Not very long because I think [SASS returned to campus] as soon as the memorial service was over. There was a level of camaraderie among the SASS students, as they began to filter back to campus, [and] old friendships began to get re-established. But they still were engaged in negotiations with the administration over their demands. They never did drop their demands nor did they pull back from them. I have no idea what happened after that or how many [demands] were met. My role was to get them through that. That’s what they asked me to do, and I limited my role to what they asked me to do and the things I felt I needed to do to protect them. I think it was one of the few takeovers in the country that remained peaceful and dignified. [In] the others, at Columbia [University]4 and other places, students were arrested, [there was] violence, people were gassed, 	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;   3	&#13;  Based	&#13;  on	&#13;  Mr.	&#13;  Woodson’s	&#13;  testimony	&#13;  and	&#13;  other	&#13;  evidence	&#13;  collected	&#13;  during	&#13;  this	&#13;  research	&#13;   project,	&#13;  we	&#13;  know	&#13;  that	&#13;  the	&#13;  students	&#13;  left	&#13;  campus	&#13;  on	&#13;  January	&#13;  16,	&#13;  1969	&#13;  when	&#13;  President	&#13;   Smith’s	&#13;  death	&#13;  was	&#13;  announced	&#13;  and	&#13;  did	&#13;  not	&#13;  return	&#13;  to	&#13;  campus	&#13;  until	&#13;  after	&#13;  the	&#13;  memorial	&#13;   service	&#13;  in	&#13;  Smith’s	&#13;  honor	&#13;  was	&#13;  held	&#13;  on	&#13;  January	&#13;  20.	&#13;  If	&#13;  they	&#13;  returned	&#13;  the	&#13;  day	&#13;  of	&#13;  the	&#13;  memorial	&#13;   service	&#13;  or	&#13;  the	&#13;  next	&#13;  day,	&#13;  then	&#13;  the	&#13;  members	&#13;  of	&#13;  SASS	&#13;  were	&#13;  in	&#13;  the	&#13;  Media	&#13;  Fellowship	&#13;  House	&#13;  for	&#13;   five	&#13;  or	&#13;  six	&#13;  days.	&#13;   4	&#13;  Columbia	&#13;  University	&#13;  students	&#13;  protested	&#13;  the	&#13;  school’s	&#13;  connection	&#13;  to	&#13;  the	&#13;  military	&#13;  and	&#13;  racist	&#13;   policies,	&#13;  specifically	&#13;  the	&#13;  University’s	&#13;  involvement	&#13;  in	&#13;  the	&#13;  Institute	&#13;  for	&#13;  Defense	&#13;  Analyses	&#13;  

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Robert	&#13;  Woodson	&#13;  Interview	&#13;  8	&#13;  

and cops came on campus. There were some people killed [in those student protests]. Swarthmore’s [protest] was, I think, one of the few that proceeded the way that it did. MM: Don Mizell said something similar at an Alumni Weekend event that happened a couple of weeks ago. He said he was pleasantly surprised that SASS’ protest wasn’t met with more of a violent reaction, and I was wondering if you could talk more about threats of violence or violence that you were worried could happen when SASS decided to occupy Parrish Hall. RW: The concern that I had was not from SASS members, but that on our side that people like the Weather Underground and the Black Panthers - because what they do is come in and seize situations in the name of helping you but end up - and a lot of people that they encounter are naive. They’re not sophisticated enough to see through all of the trappings of revolution and all of this kind of stuff. They were not sophisticated [enough] to see through it, we were. So the danger came from outside, but it also came from inside: students, particularly student athletes who felt offended by all of this. And I’m sure there were some [Ku Klux] Klan elements in the larger community that perhaps would have come. I don’t know too much about that, but my experience is that there was a lot of Klan activity in West Chester where we did our demonstrations, so in that whole area of Delaware and Chester Counties we knew that there was always the threat that white supremacists would come and take advantage of the tensions. They were always looking for flashpoints. So we had to be vigilant about the threat from within and the threat from without. We were certain having the proper external leaders, like Jim Woodruff and myself, at the helm of this - and also Diane Palm [also known as Diane R. Palm]5 and Bob Johnson [Robert Johnson]6. These were prominent community leaders in Chester who were well known. The very fact that they had a presence with the students really served to fend off anybody who would attempt to use [the protest] and turn it into something violent. So it was an impromptu, spontaneous wall of protection that we built around the students, that even they weren’t aware of. But at least they trusted me [enough] that anyone that I brought to the table, they felt confident that they would be operating in their interests. MM: Can you talk more about that outside influence that you were worried was going to hurt SASS’ goals? RW: Yeah. In the movements at those times, you had all kinds of radicals - you had the “twopercenters.” These were just anarchists [and] they were more in the West Coast than in the East Coast, but they were people who believed in radical revolution and anarchy. I have been personally involved and I wrote about stopping a riot when they actually tried to firebomb a chemical plant right in the middle of the Black community, even though it was going to destroy a lot of Black families. But they felt it would inflame the passions of Blacks, who would then react and create a race war. There were just some crazy people around. I have personal experience seeing radicals on the left and radicals on the right. You had the Two Percenters, you had the 	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;   (IDA),	&#13;  its	&#13;  construction	&#13;  of	&#13;  a	&#13;  gym	&#13;  in	&#13;  Morningside	&#13;  Park	&#13;  with	&#13;  limited	&#13;  access	&#13;  for	&#13;  Harlem	&#13;   residents,	&#13;  and	&#13;  the	&#13;  discrimination	&#13;  against	&#13;  Black	&#13;  students	&#13;  on	&#13;  campus.	&#13;  	&#13;   5	&#13;  Former Director of the Community Assistance Project (CAP) in Chester.	&#13;   6	&#13;  Former	&#13;  Director	&#13;  of	&#13;  the	&#13;  Friends	&#13;  Settlement	&#13;  House	&#13;  in	&#13;  Chester.	&#13;  

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Robert	&#13;  Woodson	&#13;  Interview	&#13;  9	&#13;  

Weather Underground. White radical groups who bombed libraries at Harvard [University], shot at police officers, and did all kinds of things. Symbionese Revolutionary Army [United Federated Forces of the Symbionese Liberation Army] in San Francisco that killed Marcus Foster, a Black principal because he was requiring students to have identification badges in order to be on campus [and] they felt this was fascist.7 So you had, at that time, a lot of crazy elements operating around the Civil Rights Movement. Any time you had a demonstration where there was a takeover, there was always a danger of it devolving into a violent confrontation. You had to work hard, every day, to make certain that it [the protest] stayed [non-violent] and the secret was having strong leadership. Clint, Don Mizell, and the [SASS] students were clear that that’s what they wanted, that they didn’t want this other stuff. They weren’t, I think, knowledgeable enough to know what help they should receive and what they shouldn’t. But they listened to us and as a result of this relationship, it was fine. ARP and MM: [Speaking simultaneously]. MM: Oh, sorry. Go ahead. ARP: Could you maybe give us some more details of what was the specific advice you gave them [SASS] about how to navigate those outsiders? How were you suggesting that they handle that? RW: Stay away from them! Tell them, when they come and offer help: no, thank you. Don’t start the conversation in the first place. When they say: “well, we want to come and help,” say: “no, thanks, we have our own advisors.” “Can we come to meetings?” No, meetings are closed. “Can we help you with some money or something?” No, we don’t need your help. I just said to them, “you cannot accept any help at all of any kind.” ARP: Yeah. RW: Even to engage in discussion. Just say “no, thank you” and just turn and walk away. And that’s what we did. They will ask, “can I address the group?” No, you cannot address the group. You cannot appear at any meetings. Just total isolation, you’ve got to just not give them any pretense for coming and taking over or participating. Just total isolation. And I said, “if there’s any threats or anything like that, let us take care of that.” But when people see who is standing with you, it serves to neutralize that. So you don’t have confrontation if the composition of the people around you is strong enough, you don’t have confrontation. And they had no way of knowing that, but those of us who had been in the streets knew that, so that’s the expertise we brought to the table. We know how to keep people away from them, but they had to cooperate. They had to agree to do it. what I love about SASS [is that] they were not interested in just getting headlines, because a lot of people get involved and they take themselves a little too 	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;   7	&#13;  Members	&#13;  of	&#13;  the	&#13;  United Federated Forces of the Symbionese Liberation Army (SLA) protested the Oakland, CA public schools’ proposal to require students to carry identification badges by shooting school officials Marcus Foster and Robert Blackburn on November 6, 1973. Blackburn survived, but Foster did not. Foster, a Black man who served as superintendent at the time, previously worked as a school principal and associate superintendent in Philadelphia, PA.	&#13;  

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Robert	&#13;  Woodson	&#13;  Interview	&#13;  10	&#13;  

seriously. Then, they get caught up in the media hype. But, SASS never did. They were more interested in content and not making headlines. MM: Earlier you contrasted the influence of these outside activists with the influence of community members such as [Reverend James] Woodruff, and I was wondering if there were other ministers or churches, or people in the community who supported SASS or who worked with SASS? RW: I didn’t know any others. All the people that I know helped, who were a part of our movement, were all neighborhood leaders. Diane Palm, who I’m still close to. She lives in Houston, Texas now. She was a teacher and we ran a program called Community Assistance Program. We helped ex-offenders on the streets. So, Diane was very happy - and Bill Sanders. There were about ten people who were very active in Chester at the time, but they were supportive of SASS. That was sort of our group. And these were the people who know people, so that I can in ten minutes, when Courtney Smith died - within half an hour - I had ten people identified with cars ready to come up on campus. ARP: Yeah. RW: [laughing] Yeah. I think that people like the Panthers knew we had that kind of influence also, so they didn’t challenge us. But, we couldn’t have done it if SASS wasn’t cooperative, if they were not coachable. And they were always very, very coachable. An intelligent person knows their limits, and a secure person knows their limits. They were all, I think, very intelligent, and very secure in who they were. Not a single one of them, I think, ever just wanted to make headlines. That why I found it easy to deal with SASS. MM: Earlier you mentioned that SASS had a good relationship with the Black staff members on campus, and we actually found a document titled "Open Letter to the Parents of Black Students of Swarthmore College," which was signed by a few Black staff members. Specifically: William and Eileen Cline, Edwin and DeLois Collins, Harold Hoffman, Robert and Lee Williams, and Rachel Williams. I’m just wondering if you remember any of these people? RW: No, I don’t. MM: Do you remember the kind of relationship that SASS had with the Black staff on campus? RW: I really didn’t even know any of the Black staff, but I heard [of their relationships with SASS] because some of them lived in Chester. The word I got on the street was: the reason that the community supported them [SASS] was because they supported some of the Black staff and never acted as if they were better than them [the staff] because they went to Swarthmore. They never took themselves too seriously because they were students of Swarthmore, and that helped a great deal. They obviously didn’t get in a class divide and that’s the reason there was so much affection between the low-income neighborhood leaders - Chester, remember, is one of the poorest communities in the state. For SASS to have a good, solid relationship with the people like that was pretty amazing at the time.

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Robert	&#13;  Woodson	&#13;  Interview	&#13;  11	&#13;  

MM: Do you think it was risky for these staff members to openly express their support for SASS? RW: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I mean, it was risky for them and that’s why I think SASS wanted to make sure that they were protected by including them in it, so that anything that happened to the staff members happened to SASS. I haven’t seen that happen before. A lot of these movements are just self-centered and were not expansive to include others, you know. That’s, again, what was unique about the SASS movement. They were very, very inclusive in terms of class. Very, very inclusive. ARP: [whispering to MM] Can I move on to question six? MM: Yeah, do you want to - ? ARP: Sure. So we were reading that on January 10th, the day after the sit-in started, SASS representatives Clinton Etheridge and Don Mizell met with President Smith’s assistant Gilmore Stott at the Media Fellowship House. According to the campus paper [the Phoenix], it said that the press conference was open to any press person but that you had asked that they not come into the meeting between the SASS representatives and Mr. Stott. Is that an accurate portrayal? RW: Yeah. When you’re negotiating, you want people to negotiate on issues ARP: Yeah. RW: And not get sidetracked by trying to pitch to press. It’s very bad to have press in when you’re negotiating because you’re going to be changing your mind, you’re going to be shifting around, and you don’t want people to play to the press. ARP: Yeah. RW: Then you can make a statement afterwards. But I thought the worst thing in the world was to have the press in when you’re negotiating. ARP: Yeah. Had you been in contact with Swarthmore administrators before that? Were they familiar with you? Had you worked with them at all? RW: [laughing] Not directly, but our reputation was pretty good in the area. The Media Fellowship House was started by Quakers, as was Swarthmore, and many of the members of the board are Swarthmore - some of them are Swarthmore trustees, some of them either attended Swarthmore or had kids in Swarthmore - so there was a symbiotic relationship between Media Fellowship House and Swarthmore. No formal relationship, but just an informal one because people went back and forth. The Biddle family, from Bailey Banks &amp; Biddle, they were one of the founders of Media Fellowship House and, I think, a large supporter of Swarthmore, for example. Then, a lot of the work camps - I was a member of the American Friends Service Committee and did a lot of work with the Friends Service Committee, so I knew Swarthmore people and they knew me through the American Friends Service Committee. There’s a retreat, I

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Robert	&#13;  Woodson	&#13;  Interview	&#13;  12	&#13;  

forgot the name of it, but there’s a Quaker retreat right in the area8 and I met Swarthmore faculty at these presentations at retreats and things like that. But that was about all. But, I know everyone was in shock when this happened at Swarthmore. It was the biggest shock because of Swarthmore’s liberal reputation. They just didn’t expect it to happen. Interesting time. MM: So you were talking about organizing this luncheon, and organizing the communication between SASS students and their parents. How else was your office, as the “command center,” supportive of SASS during the actual RW: Just raise money to provide resources that they need for press releases and food. We had a budget for that [laughing] People made donations to help them, from Chester and from my organization. That was about all. It was pretty much limited to making our facility available to them. We did nothing else during that period but support SASS. I mean, all of our time and energy was spent helping them. We suspended everything else, and just helped them. MM: And besides the Media Fellowship House, you were affiliated with CHIP [Chester Home Improvement Project]9 during that time? RW: The what? MM: With CHIP. What was the other organization you mentioned? RW: Yeah. I forgot CHIP. I forgot. Yeah, there were a couple other organizations. CHIP - I forgot what the acronym was, but I know that was in Chester. There was CHIP, and there were quite a few organizations. Everybody had an acronym. RW and MM: [Laughing]. MM: So these organizations were in Media, Chester, and RW: Chester mostly. MM: Mostly Chester? RW: Yeah. Media is kind of a sleepy, little middle- and upper-income enclave. I think South Media had a little, small - but all the families go back centuries, almost. You see a name of a Black family Darlington and a White Darlington, then you see Darlington Road [laughing]. 	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;  	&#13;   8	&#13;  In	&#13;  1930,	&#13;  Pendle	&#13;  Hill	&#13;  was	&#13;  established	&#13;  to	&#13;  uphold	&#13;  the	&#13;  educational	&#13;  and	&#13;  spiritual	&#13;  values	&#13;  of	&#13;  the	&#13;   Religious	&#13;  Society	&#13;  of	&#13;  Friends.	&#13;  This	&#13;  Quaker	&#13;  retreat	&#13;  center	&#13;  is	&#13;  located	&#13;  in	&#13;  Wallingford,	&#13;  PA,	&#13;  less	&#13;   than	&#13;  two	&#13;  miles	&#13;  from	&#13;  Swarthmore	&#13;  College.	&#13;  	&#13;   9	&#13;  Lowell	&#13;  Livezey,	&#13;  Swarthmore	&#13;  College	&#13;  class	&#13;  of	&#13;  1966,	&#13;  founded	&#13;  the	&#13;  Chester	&#13;  Home	&#13;   Improvement	&#13;  Project	&#13;  (CHIP)	&#13;  in	&#13;  1965	&#13;  with	&#13;  the	&#13;  sponsorship	&#13;  of	&#13;  the	&#13;  Robert	&#13;  Wade	&#13;   Neighborhood	&#13;  House.	&#13;  CHIP’s	&#13;  mission	&#13;  was	&#13;  to	&#13;  improve	&#13;  the	&#13;  housing	&#13;  conditions	&#13;  of	&#13;  working-­‐ class	&#13;  people	&#13;  in	&#13;  Chester,	&#13;  PA.	&#13;  SASS	&#13;  members	&#13;  involved	&#13;  in	&#13;  the	&#13;  1969	&#13;  sit-­‐in	&#13;  volunteered	&#13;  with	&#13;   CHIP.	&#13;  The	&#13;  organization’s	&#13;  records	&#13;  are	&#13;  located	&#13;  at	&#13;  the	&#13;  Temple	&#13;  University	&#13;  Urban	&#13;  Archives.	&#13;  

�	&#13;  

Robert	&#13;  Woodson	&#13;  Interview	&#13;  13	&#13;  

Quakers, as you know, let their slaves go. Released them and then gave them land, so you have like Concord and all these little Black enclaves that go back 200 years all over that area. Interesting history. Some of the old mansions, you can just see the Underground Railroad tunnels that lead from a person’s house out to the field. [Emergency service vehicle sirens in the background]. MM: Wow. RW: You can still some of those in Wallingford and Chichester, and all like that. Some of the old mansions maintained that antebellum kind of history there. MM: So, I think we’re getting ready to wrap this up, but I wanted to ask about the end of the protest. You said that once President Courtney Smith passed away, that was the end of your RW: Involvement. MM: Involvement. But, can you tell us if Black Swarthmore students continued to work in Chester, and if you continued to be involved with them through that space, like their mentoring or tutoring in Chester? RW: No, I don’t recall. I don’t recall. I just know that we moved on to other things, other issues since our goal was just - [sirens get louder] an ambulance service. [laughing] So, once the service was delivered MM: Yeah. RW and MM: [Laughing]. MM: Once you made it out alive [laughing]. RW: After everybody got out alive, and everybody was talking and whatnot, we just kind of went to other things. I saw some of them - I left and went to work in Boston for two years, and I think Don was in Harvard Law School, so I ran into Clint Etheridge and those who went to Harvard Law School. I saw them in Boston, occasionally, socially. I remember they came up. Most of them went to law school, I think. Marilyn Holifield. MM: Yeah. RW: And Don Mizell I know went to Harvard because I used to see him at my office. I don’t know where Clint went. Someplace. But I know Don and Marilyn Holifield came to Boston. That was it. Again, mine was an ambulance service [laughing]. MM: Do you have any other questions Ali? ARP: I don’t.

�	&#13;  

Robert	&#13;  Woodson	&#13;  Interview	&#13;  14	&#13;  

MM: Is there anything else you want to make sure we make a note of? Anything we didn’t ask you about? RW: I wasn’t clear what role Asmarom Legesse - I know he was a very nice guy, I don’t know if he’s still around or no, but he was an interesting guy. He was the only Black faculty, he was very supportive. No, that’s about it. We just about covered everything: how we [SASS and I] met, and then what our role was, what their role was, the incident involving the death of Courtney Smith. I think what’s important for me, that I remember most, is just how sophisticated and self-confident the students were to be so young and not get caught up in the hype of the movement. Because a lot of people in movements get impressed with themselves when they’re on television or in the newspapers, and that becomes an attraction and a distraction. So they get defined by the distraction [laughing] and not the content of what they were about. But SASS never wavered from that, and I think that’s why their movement was the subject of a Life magazine profile. Because of the dignified way they handled it. Columbia, you don’t see anything about Columbia. That was a mess. Some students got barred forever from going back to school. I knew some young people who went through that, they never went back to college. That was it. ARP: Yeah. MM: Well, thank you for your time. ARP: Thank you. MM: This has been really informative and it’s really wonderful to hear from someone who was there, and who had a little more experience or a little bit more wisdom to see what was going on during that time. Because I’m sure it was an emotional, trying time for people involved in that protest. But, thank you so much for sharing your story with us. RW: Yeah, because a lot of people who try to help people, they use them for their own purposes. ARP: Yeah. RW: They had to be careful. I had to be an example of what I was telling them to avoid [laughing]. So, I tried to be faithful to that. Not getting involved in determining what their demands were, just being on tap but not on top. That’s very hard sometimes for people who try to help.

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                    <text>This is an interview with Dr. Ava Harris Stanley, who was a student at Swarthmore College from  1967­ 1972.  She was a member of SASS and served as the treasurer for SASS as well as  participated in the 1969 sit­in in the admissions office.  The interview was conducted by John  Gagnon and Ali Roseberry­Polier on Wednesday August 6, 2014 via phone.   ARP: OK we just started.  This is Ali; I am Dr. Dorsey’s research assistant for the summer.  I  just graduated.  AHS: Congratulations  ARP: Thank you.  JG: And this is John.  I’m a current student that is a research assistant for Dr. Dorsey.  AHS: Alright, how can I help you both?  ARP: Can we get started with the interview?  AHS: Yes.  ARP: Thank you.  JG: OK.  Well to start off with if you just want to give us a little bit of your overview of your  experiences at Swarthmore.  I think that would be a good place for us to start.  AHS:  That’s a while back.  So my experiences at Swarthmore.  The experience was completely  new to me.  I had as a child, as a teenager, grew up on the south side of Chicago, which has a  long history, African­American history, no exposure to Quaker traditions or even that  demographic.  So the experience was new to me.  The educational experience was also new to  me because I was much more exposed to I suppose you would call it not conceptual, not  analytical learning style, so it was drop Ava into the ocean see if she can swim.  So the exposure  to African­American, interestingly enough was also different because the African­American  history of the midwest, the experience that is to say, particularly Chicago is way different from  the east coast­ New York, New Jersey, and south.  And so I was exposed to basic individuals of  history but not the text, not the literature of the east coast.  There’s a lot more, to me anyway, to  literature of biography and autobiography was what I was exposed to as opposed to the literature  of Sociology or De Bois or Harold Cruse1 .  It was an interesting experience.  I was used to the  ideas of African­American organizations because that was the only way that we functioned was  through organizations, so that was ok.  That was actually the part that I was most familiar with.  The part, the expectations of other non­black students was also new to me.  That was the first  time people ever wanted to pat my hair, see what it felt like.  I had never really been exposed to  suburban living or people who lived in the suburbs; I was strictly urban.  I would say that and the 
1

 Harold Cruse was the author of The Crisis of the Negro Intellectual in 1967.  He taught African American  Studies at the University of Michigan beginning in 1968.  Among his ideologies were his stance against  integration, rather he supported and implored African­Americans to reclaim their cultural heritage and to  establish centers of cultural influence.  

�academic atmosphere made it an interesting set of years.  I think I was enriched by it, but there  was a lot of kicking and screaming in the process.  I think there are easier ways to expose young  students to each other, but it was a politically charged atmosphere.  Now I realize later on that  most academic atmospheres are politically charged, so that was nothing that was different.  Did  I feel like I was mistreated­ no.  Did I feel like I could have had a better time in the process­ yeah.  I think orientation could have been a little bit different; mainly orientation that week was getting to  know where all the building were not getting exposed to the class style.  I suppose if I had gone  to­ well that was the other thing I did not go to a high velocity prep school where I learned to read  the primary literature and analyze it in a way that was useful, so that I had to learn how to do that.  And the thing that I most noticed is that even though I wasn’t good at Math and Science and  Chemistry, there was much less bias there.  I was much more drawn to it after a certain point.  It  was the perspectives, even the liberal perspectives in History and Sociology had no room for the  voice of the studied group or individual so I was...For that reason I think Biology and Chemistry  were actually easier.  In terms of mentorship which I think is really the most important thing in  terms of academic development and focusing on what your path should be there was none until I  met Kathryn Morgan.  And in terms of medicine there was none until I met people, I think they  had a proposal for a post­bac program and they brought in people who had graduated but  needed another year of exposure to Science so they could move on.  And I met these people and  then I saw them as successful, and at that point I basically did a u turn or I think maybe it was a  right turn.  At any rate that mentorship process in the most important part of the process of  learning and education.  There are certain ways to break paths, that is to develop new ideas, to  learn new things, and to communicate them and that part needs a model that part needs a way  of thinking about it and going about it and its just not clear to somebody coming from where I  came from which is basically south side, went to a private parochial high school, but you learn  basic stuff; you didn’t learn academic process there.  But once you are able to understand  academic process then you can break new paths and move forward.  That kind of trust  relationship, it should happen more often­ I don’t know how to make it more often­ but it should  happen more often.  Does that explain?  JG/ARP: Yeah, that’s good.  JG: So I guess we want to go from there, you talked about being familiar with black  organizations, were you a member of SASS?  AHS: yes  JG: And when did you join SASS?  AHS: ‘70­ no, no, when did I come in?  ‘67  JG: In ‘67  AHS: Yeah, in September of ‘67.  I think that’s when they­ we first had,started having meetings  then.  I think that, I’m not even sure, I think I remember meeting about an argument about what 

�we were going to call ourselves.  I don’t think anybody took minutes for those meetings, so I can’t  tell you which one it was or whether it well and truly happened.  JG: So you were in it from the beginning of the program­ of the group?  AHS: I think so.    JG: And do you remember why you decided to join?  AHS: I’m not even sure I understand the question because; I suppose the question to me was  why wouldn’t I join.  Did I see myself as African­American­ yes.  Did I feel like I had shared  values­ hope so, wasn’t sure but was willing to find out.  We actually were very diverse, very  heterogenous.  It was kinda amazing, I mean suburban, urban, I mean a wide demographic.  At  the time the admissions office­ to me the reason we started meeting was because the  admissions office had done an analysis of who the black students were in hopes that they could  further develop the black student population.  But they did it in a very­ they wrote a paper and  said ‘here what do you think?’  As opposed to having small group meetings and saying ‘what  works for you, what doesn’t work for you.’  They looked at it as not student development but what  works for the college.  They wrote a paper­ there were only about 50 of us so you could figure  out who was who and you could also figure out what the SAT score were and other stuff­  it  wasn’t the kind of paper that you share with subjects but they were doing the best they could.  But anyway there were all kind of reactions to that; to me it was knowledge, to everybody else it  was­ some people were very offended and you could look at the paper and say ‘this is a very  wide demographic’ and I came to realize, and they based in on the basis of schools and SAT  scores and then as I got to know them I realized this is a wide demographic in terms of  academic background as well as cultural background.  Even at that point there were  African­Americans who were from the Caribbean, African­Americans from Harlem, New York,  New Jersey are totally different from African­Americans from the South Side.  African­Americans  from Florida and Virginia are totally different from African­Americans from Chicago.   Africans  from the Caribbean are different from all of that.  There were some students who didn’t join, and I  was never sure about their motivations.    JG: Were there many of those, or were they pretty few in number?  AHS: There were a few; there were a few.  JG: But they never voiced their reason why they didn’t join?  AHS: I don’t think I ever asked them.  I don’t think I was at that stage; I was a freshman.  But my  background had been from  organizations with successful social and political lives.  My father  was in the democratic party in Chicago, particularly the Young Democrats, and this had been an  organization present since the 19th Century, I think Chicago had a black congressman either  early 1900’s or late 19th Century but there was some type of black organized political life in  Chicago.  So that was how I understood organizations.  SASS was a lot less structured, but I 

�thought it would pursue goals and articulate and speak for and also accomplish things that would  improve student life and student interest.    ARP: So what was your involvement with the 1969 takeover of Parrish Hall?  What do you  remember about that?  AHS: I was there.  I didn’t really like it.    ARP: What about it did you not like?  AHS: I felt as part of an organization it was something I had to do, but I didn’t think that­ and it  was part of the process of other student activities that were going on in the region at the time.  They weren’t going on in the South Side of Chicago at the time; we had already had student life  at the University of Chicago. My mother actually went to the University of Chicago, MBA 1948.  She commuted though.  But I felt like it was an important step and we needed to be unified.  And  the demands seemed reasonable and at that point making them requests didn’t seem  appropriate because we were outside the tradition of Swarthmore thinking and maybe even  Quaker thought­ I don’t know I haven’t studied enough philosophy.  I know the Quaker meetings I  went to, I was the only black person, so I’m thinking we were probably outside that tradition.    JG: Do you remember how you felt during the days that you were sitting­in in the admissions  office?  AHS: Me personally, I was just holding on. It wasn’t something that I well and truly wanted to do.  I’m not a protest kind of individual; I mean, will be in granted situations.  If this was a way of me  asserting myself and this was the option I had as opposed to not being a part of that  organization­ and at that point there only seemed to be two choices, either you’re in or you’re out­  I said well, ok.    ARP: So after President Courtney Smith died, SASS ended the sit­in and many students left  campus; did you leave campus at that point?  AHS: yeah where were we; we were at some church in some place.  Were we in Chester or  Philadelphia?  I don’t remember.    ARP: What can you remember about the exit from campus?  AHS:   I think we were in private cars.  Then when we got there, I don’t even remember where we  slept, probably on the floor because we were sleeping on the floor in the admissions office.  I  remember trying to communicate and trying to get people to talk to each other because on hand I  thought it was really difficult at that point because Sam Shepard was the president of the group2 ,  and I wasn’t really part of the Seven Sisters, it was more like I was trying to mediate between the  two and I felt like I was getting alright I’m trying to get along here; I’m not even sure what the 
2

 Sam Shepard was the original president of SASS, and graduated in 1968.  Clinton Etheridge was the  current president of SASS during this time.   

�issue was.  I think I was trying to make sense of, trying to make something coherent.  Why are  we here  and what should we do next.  I don’t think that was clear to me so I just took the next  semester off.  I came back and I think that was sophomore or junior year and then I came back.  When I came back there were other activities going on.    JG: And then when you came back, we found that there were some documents where your were  listed as the treasurer for SASS.  AHS: Treasurer, yes.  I was; I just collected membership money and deposited it in an account.  JG: How long were you in that position?  AHS: Maybe a year.  I think I was on the steering committee one year; maybe I was, maybe I  wasn’t.  I did have a lot of things to say.    JG: Do you remember other members of SASS that were on other committees with you?  AHS: I remember Harold Trammel but I don’t remember whether he was a part of the steering  committee.  Don Mizell.  Holly Robinson. Gillespie, Myra Rose  JG: As members of the steering committee?  AHS: I’m trying to remember.  I know Holly was. Mizell was, I’m not sure about the others. There  were a lot of disagreements about how to go about things.   ARP: What sort of disagreements?  AHS: I’m trying to remember what they were. They mainly stand out as conflict. I’m not even sure  the issues were all that significant. Yeah, I remember. At a certain point a lot of people had  graduated on and the steering committee had a lot of freshmen on it, and Holly. And I think Mizell  was trying to basically bulldoze people, and I wasn’t really sure whether that was for the good of  the organization or for the good of Don Mizell.  ARP: Yeah.  AHS: And I basically said to Holly, well, why do you want to be involved in this process? Because  my conversations with Mizell would be more like, we need to be an organization of people as well  as of issues, and it’s not so much who the leader is, but what about leadership development. I’m  kind of summarizing here, I probably wasn’t as articulate. We had meetings ­ there was  somebody else who was good, she was a history major. I’m having a hard time remembering  her name. Very tough­minded. I just felt like I spent a lot of time trying to assert interests of group  process, rather than, you know, individual leadership process. Interestingly enough, a template  for organizations in general. Yeah, I was treasurer, and then I think ­ I don’t think I was ever really  a part of the steering committee, although I certainly had things to say.  

�ARP: Yeah. Did you get the sense that any of those divisions within SASS were along lines of  gender, in terms of leadership?  AHS: Initially, yes, very much. Marilyn ­ we used to call them the Marilyns, Marilyn Holifield and  Marilyn Allman. They both had very clear ideas of what should happen. More Marilyn Allman, I  listened to Marilyn Allman more than I did Holifield. Holifield wasn’t around all that much. People  listened to what they had to say. They were fairly coherent. And they were also fairly coherent in  meetings, which is probably where I heard most of what they had to say. I remember an  interaction between Marilyn Allman and a history professor at a meeting where we were trying to  develop Black Studies, trying to define it, determine it in terms of focus, in terms of where  courses should be. The history professor was saying that many times, specific culturally  focused course work or course concentrations didn’t survive or didn’t have academic focus or  weren’t well funded. And Marilyn’s specific question was, and how does this relate to Black  Studies?   JG: And so was that the Black Studies Curriculum Committee?  AHS: Yeah.  JG: And you were a part of that.  AHS: Yeah. I guess, yeah.  JG: And from your experiences on that, did you feel like the faculty members or administrative  members that you dealt with treated you as a respectable person, or equal that had something  good to contribute to the conversation?  AHS: That’s a loaded question. We sat on different sides of the table but we had different sets of  armamentarium. It was unloaded for us politically in that we didn’t have the budget, we didn’t  have the perspective on how to integrate African American history into history, integrate DuBois  into sociology. And so, yeah, they were respectful in the context of the academic process of  funding, hiring, grant proposals, and academic and faculty politics, yeah. [pause] The other  interesting thing, I was involved in a meeting with, I think maybe a provost, about the Black  Student House, when they basically said ­ they would call us for meetings, and I’d go, alright,  what the fuck’s going on now. I didn’t quite say that, but their project line of how things should  work was not communicated to us at any point in time. And knowing how committees work and  how management and management style works, I’m also sure that wasn’t intentional, but it  certainly was hard to predict. I remember being in a meeting where we were basically offered the  building, and I’m thinking, this is what I’m sitting here to say, to say, OK. So I said, OK, that’ll be  fine. With funding for it. And I said, OK, yes, thank you. At that point, students weren’t supposed  to say thank you, but I nodded my head and was agreeable. Even now, I realize that friendliness  and collegiality can be misconstrued, and I think I was appropriate at the time.  

�JG: And do you remember other interactions with the faculty regarding getting the Black Cultural  Center?  AHS: That was the one I remember the most. There was one protest where we went to the  house of a later president and somebody read poetry basically saying, we’re not happy with what  you’re doing. And I’m thinking, I’m always thinking, whenever I go to a protest, and I’ve been to  other protests, this isn’t making any sense. But, OK, we want to do this, you want to do this, you  think it’s important, OK. That president was only there for a year, I think. Was his name Friend?3    ARP: Would that have been Robert Cross?4    AHS: Maybe so, Cross, yeah.   ARP: And, do you remember, you said you were in the meeting where you agreed to the building  for the Black Cultural Center. Do you remember why students chose that building, or why that  building was the one that ended up getting decided on?  AHS: Why that building was offered, I have no idea. That was one of those things, I wanted to  stop and say, wait, where is this coming from? Why are you offering us this? Do we have  choices here?  ARP: Yeah.  AHS: And I said to myself, somebody somewhere knows this and somebody should have told  me, but I realized I was at a meeting, and these meetings are always like, alright, we’re going to  sit down and talk to you and we’re not going to have any preamble to these discussions. Or the  preamble that we have is more of a principled, conceptual one. It doesn’t talk about facts or  who’s involved or ­ so I did not ask those key questions, but I also thought, would I get a clear  answer if I asked them?   ARP: Yeah, certainly.  AHS: So, I would have liked to have a contact inside that management process to tell me exactly  what was going on, and I did not have one.   ARP: Yeah. And did you feel that the faculty and administration was sort of opaque with all  members of SASS?   AHS: Yeah, I think so.  ARP: And did they, did you feel that they at any point deferred to the male members more than  the women in SASS? 

3 4

 Theodore Friend was the Swarthmore College President from 1973 ­ 1982.    Robert Cross was the Swarthmore College President from 1969 ­ 1971. 

�AHS: Only when they wrote the history. The history of that period that was written, I’m not sure  who commissioned it, but there were no women involved in that history. I mean, there were no  women mentioned in that history.  ARP: Yeah. And that wasn’t your experience from being involved?  AHS: Not at all.   JG: Going back briefly to you saying you were excluded from a lot of details on the Black Cultural  Center. Did you ever hear anything about the Michener Fund?   AHS: That came through, but I didn’t know how it was connected to the ­ James Michener left a  lot of money, but they decided how to spend it.  ARP: The administration did?  AHS: Yeah.  ARP: And so did you have any idea how the fund was to be divided, or what role it was to play?  AHS: No. I never saw that paperwork.   ARP: Yeah.   JG: I guess just in general, how do you perceive that your work in SASS shaped your  experiences as a student?   AHS: I guess the question for me would be, were my work in SASS and my work as a student  connected? I’m not sure if they were connected.   JG: I guess additionally, did you feel that your association with SASS influenced how you were  perceived in the greater college community by other students?  AHS: That I don’t know.   JG: Yeah.  AHS: The backgrounds of the other students that I met ­ I met people who came from the  suburbs, people who were ­ it was just a really big demographic in terms of people who were  learned, rich, well­connected, long traditions of success, familial success. I accepted them for  who they were, but they certainly weren’t me. I had long traditions of survival, but my mother was  the first person in our family to graduate, my grandparents had completed high school, so at a  certain point I didn’t pay too much attention to my relationships or how other people perceived  me, I was just more interested in maybe helping somebody else and then trying to get out.  

�ARP: Yeah. And to back up a little bit, you were talking earlier about the role that faculty played,  especially when Kathryn Morgan came, and I was wondering if you could talk a little bit more  about your relationships with black faculty or administrators.   AHS: I think there were people in the admissions office, I think the admissions office tried to hire  people specifically to recruit black students. During my sojourn there was the first time they tried  to hire black faculty and administrators so I tried to have relationships with them.  JG: But Kathryn Morgan was the one you had the most interaction with, or that meant the most  to you?  AHS: Yes. It was more of, it gave me to understand how research was supposed to work. That  you started with primary research and worked your way forward into analysis. And that, without  the true primary research ­ I mean, you can do history from documents and that’s certainly valid  and gives you a good perspective and perception, but talking to people and listening to their  stories for me has always been the central way of getting perspective and perception, not just on  events but also on how people perceive events. And from that you can develop models of  thinking about it. There were, I think there was one political science professor there, and I  dropped out of his course on day one because he talked in four line sentences. And I thought  um, no, analysis is important, but analysis without background ­ OK, it’s wonderful, it’s  impressive, but this is not how I learn.   ARP: And that’s something you were able to get more in Kathryn Morgan’s classes?  AHS: It was more, yeah. I was successful there because it gave me to understand how models  are built. It gave me a feeling of, OK, I understand how this works. And that was really, I think, my  first exposure to a real way of looking at methodology more than just having to memorize  models, that was building methods. So yeah, I would say yeah. In terms of other people ­  basically, I think I graduated in sociology but I don’t think I was ever really a sociologist. Even  when I graduated I honestly have to say I was not well­read in sociology. I got a degree.   ARP: Did you work at all with Asmarom Legesse in that department?  AHS: Say again?  ARP: Did you work or take any classes with Asmarom Legesse when you were studying  sociology?  AHS: I don't think, were they there when I was there? I don't think so.  JG: I’m not sure how long he stayed. He was there for a period. He was also in anthropology,  rather than sociology.   AHS: Yeah, anthropology, yeah. I think I did take a course with him.   JG: But that was the extent of your relationship with him? 

�AHS: Yeah, right.   ARP: You mentioned a couple minutes ago students getting more involved in recruiting more  black students. Is that something that you were involved with at all?  AHS: Recruiting, yeah, I did go on a recruitment trip with one of the administrators there. He told  me I wasn’t good at it because I didn’t smile enough.   ARP: Do you remember which administrator that was? Would it have been William Cline by any  chance?  AHS: I think it was a guy that was only there for a year. But I don’t think it was William Cline. Was  that C­L­I­N­E?  ARP: Yeah.  AHS: I’m blanking at names.  ARP: That’s alright.  JG: That’s fine.  AHS: I’d do better if I had a picture of him. I don’t think he was in the admissions office. Wasn’t he  an assistant dean? Or was he in admissions?  ARP: He was in admissions, not for very long though.  AHS: OK, then it must have been him, alright.  JG: Another thing that comes to mind with the recruitment is the Black at Swarthmore booklet.  Do you have any memories or experiences with that?  AHS: Blacks at Swarthmore?  JG: The booklet, the recruitment booklet.  AHS: No. I don’t think so. I think I may have seen it, but I don’t think I was a part of writing it.  JG: And you don’t remember other people working on it?  AHS: No, I don’t remember that.  ARP: Thank you. Were you involved in other black organizations, such as the Gospel Choir or  the Black Dance Troupe? Do you remember what sort of impact they had on college life when  they started?  AHS: I think the gospel choir was just starting as I left, and I wasn’t involved in that. I graduated in  ‘72. The last year I was there I don’t think I was that involved in student life.  

�ARP: Yeah.  JG: And the same goes for the dance troupe, do you remember that at all?  AHS: I’m pretty sure that happened after I left. I think it did. Maybe it didn’t, but I wasn’t involved in  it.  ARP: OK, yeah, thank you.  JG: And were there any other groups similar to those that your remember that we’re forgetting?  AHS: SASS was enough, I guarantee. In terms of student groups, right?   JG: Yes.  AHS: SASS was enough.   ARP: Is there anything else that you’d want to add about your time at Swarthmore, and  particularly your involvement with SASS? Anything we’re leaving out?  AHS: I think you brought out a lot more than I thought I remembered. So I think I’m done.  ARP: Thank you.  JG: It’s been really nice, thank you.  AHS: Best of good luck to both of you.  ARP and JG: Thank you so much. 

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