33 20 962 http://s3.amazonaws.com/sc-lib-ds-bl1969/original/b2b14e4fe6ce1449e80c65a70dab5c92.pdf 3dd36c57179e3c8de55ee01f60277ffb PDF Text Text � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource The Swarthmorean Description An account of the resource Articles that originally appeared in the Swarthmore Borough newspaper, <em>The Swarthmorean</em>, during the events of 1969. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived McCabe Library Microfilm Archives Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource College appoints black educators Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource The Swarthmorean Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 06/20/1969 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource .pdf Black admissions post-enrollment support http://s3.amazonaws.com/sc-lib-ds-bl1969/original/c19e16f06d531d70e9a57ded6860fa28.pdf 035edae8885b668bcdde60c3976d4e3a PDF Text Text � � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Delaware County Daily Times Description An account of the resource A daily newspaper with headquarters in Upper Darby Township, Delaware County, Pennsylvania. The articles, editorials and announcements included here were published between September 1968 and December 1972. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived McCabe Library Microfilm Archives Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource $1000 donated by Scott Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 06/23/1969 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource .pdf Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Delaware County Daily Times Media Fellowship House Robert Woodson http://s3.amazonaws.com/sc-lib-ds-bl1969/original/40dce626cd172850c8f33b3fcba8bdbd.JPG b229700f58e9d47a7a18992f29c9bdb0 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interviews Description An account of the resource Audio files, transcriptions and photographs documenting the interviews of Swarthmore College alumni, former faculty, and community activists who played an active role in the Black activism at Swarthmore College from 1968 to 1972. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Black Liberation 1969 Research Team Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Maria Mejia, Robert Woodson, and Alison Roseberry-Polier Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Maria Mejia Alison Roseberry-Polier Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 06/24/2014 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource .JPG Robert Woodson http://s3.amazonaws.com/sc-lib-ds-bl1969/original/1fef19a36845e182945d5c9986bc89ec.JPG 0ace66d644c74a18273902b56584f0cf Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interviews Description An account of the resource Audio files, transcriptions and photographs documenting the interviews of Swarthmore College alumni, former faculty, and community activists who played an active role in the Black activism at Swarthmore College from 1968 to 1972. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Black Liberation 1969 Research Team Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Robert Woodson Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Maria Mejia Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 06/24/2014 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource .JPG Robert Woodson http://s3.amazonaws.com/sc-lib-ds-bl1969/original/3b487a32ed33fc34f702a5a9bcd42af7.JPG 0ace66d644c74a18273902b56584f0cf http://s3.amazonaws.com/sc-lib-ds-bl1969/original/4c2b2b79b947ac8a245ae45cc5517ab4.mp3 e9ff6fbf8bf3a5c0087731b7d63f9a39 http://s3.amazonaws.com/sc-lib-ds-bl1969/original/4e7615bbbe054c792c38d9e75c5554c7.pdf d9a4effe6707592b42ae347a164351b6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interviews Description An account of the resource Audio files, transcriptions and photographs documenting the interviews of Swarthmore College alumni, former faculty, and community activists who played an active role in the Black activism at Swarthmore College from 1968 to 1972. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Black Liberation 1969 Research Team Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Maria Mejia Alison Roseberry-Polier Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Robert Woodson Location The location of the interview Washington, D.C. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 48 minutes, 27 seconds Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Robert Woodson Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Robert Woodson Maria Mejia Alison Roseberry-Polier Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 06/24/2014 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource .mp3 1969 sit-in Clinton Etheridge Courtney Smith's death Don Mizell Marilyn Holifield Media Fellowship House Robert Woodson Ruth Wilson http://s3.amazonaws.com/sc-lib-ds-bl1969/original/4979bb1f440d23b82b176b3e3f30da8f.pdf 53755c11b064c3383ef3b4543dc15e9d PDF Text Text   Robert  Woodson  Interview  1   Black Liberation 1969: Black Studies in History, Theory and Praxis An interview with Robert Woodson (RW) conducted by Maria Mejia (MM) and Alison Roseberry-Polier (ARP) in Washington, D.C. on June 24, 2014. This transcription was written by Maria Mejia, and has been edited for clarity. Mr. Woodson served as the Executive Director of the Media Fellowship House in Media, PA from 1967 to 1969. Through this position and his work as a community activist in the area, Mr. Woodson met members of the Swarthmore Afro-American Student Society (SASS). He reports helping SASS members plan the sit-in at the Swarthmore College Admissions Office in Parrish Hall. Mr. Woodson and his colleagues supported SASS throughout the sit-in, which started on January 9, 1969, and invited the group to stay at the Media Fellowship House when they called a moratorium on January 16 following the death of President Courtney Smith. Mr. Woodson remained involved with the protest until SASS returned to campus after President Smith’s memorial service, held on January 20, 1969. MM: This summer we’re collecting materials, collecting research, interviewing people such as yourself that were involved – RW: This is your summer employment? MM: Yes. RW: And yours? ARP: Yes. RW: Okay. Where are you from? MM: I’m from New York City. ARP: I’m also from New York City. RW: Okay. ARP: I just graduated, so I’m working as Dr. Dorsey’s research assistant this summer. RW: Okay. MM: This summer we’re going to create an archive of primary source materials, interviews, and first-hand accounts [about the activism of Black Swarthmore College students from 1968 to 1972]. In the fall there’s going to be a class, taught by Dr. Dorsey, that’s going to focus on this event [the 1969 sit-in]. Students are going to go through the materials that we put together, and create their own historical narratives of what happened based on these primary source documents. �   Robert  Woodson  Interview  2   RW: Okay. Where do you want to start? MM: Well, do you have any more questions about the class or about – RW: Is the purpose to just reconstruct [the protest of 1969]? I think it [this history] lay dormant for a long time. It was probably the only university activity that wasn’t written up. It was covered extensively in Life magazine1 and there were some other newspaper [inaudible], but there’s been nothing on the part of Swarthmore, I don't think. MM: Exactly. RW: Even acknowledging that it happened. MM: Exactly. Our college is celebrating 150 years and Dr. Dorsey, along with some of her colleagues, thought that this was a really important part of Swarthmore’s history that needed to resurface or needed to be taught to current students of the College. RW: It was a shock at the time that this was happening at Swarthmore, that’s why there was an air of disbelief on the part of a lot of people and supporters of Swarthmore. They thought they were above the fray. ARP: Yeah. RW: That’s why it was amazing to see the response to it. MM: Our first question is: through your work in Chester and as the Director of the Media Fellowship House, you connected with the students who formed the Swarthmore Afro-American Student Society, also known as SASS. Just to start off, how do you remember your relationships with the Black Swarthmore students during that time period? RW: Well, I was very active in helping [with] the civil rights demonstrations and activities in … West Chester, Pennsylvania, Media and Chester. But Chester was the real center of activity and the SASS students were very much involved in helping out in the Chester low-income community. They were mentoring kids, bringing some of them on campus, and they really got themselves deeply involved in the life of the community. So they had established some real, strong bonds. But they were also very active with the service personnel on campus: the janitors and the people who worked in the kitchen, and embraced them almost as a part of it [the protest]. They had a real solid relationship with the students, and I met them through these relationships because I had been serving low-income leaders. Part of my work in civil rights wasn’t just to confront racism but [to] confront challenges within low-income communities, which I thought was a shortcoming of the Civil Rights Movement. Because it concentrated almost exclusively on                                                                                                                 1  A  reference  to  the  Life  magazine  piece  “Requiem  for  Courtney  Smith”  written  by  Paul   Good  and  published  on  May  9,  1969.     �   Robert  Woodson  Interview  3   race at the expense, sometimes, of overlooking non-racial problems that existed in the community. I was involved in that and that’s how I met the SASS students. MM: At some point the SASS students approached you about what they were planning to do. Can you tell us about those early planning meetings? How did you guide them through those early stages? RW: Well, when they first came to me and told me what their plans were, I said to them that they’re welcome to use my office as a staging area and a place to meet and organize it. I just gave them some guidance. I said that “if you’re going to do this, it’s important to do it with dignity and non-violently, so that the issue stays focused and not on your abhorrent behavior” [laughing]. And I told them at the time that “once this becomes public, there will be people who will be drawn to you,” would try to use them [SASS] for their own purposes in the name of helping them [SASS] and that it was very important for them [SASS] to remain separate from them [outsiders] and keep them away from it [the protest]. And I would help with that. That was my advice to the students. The whole takeover was coordinated out of my office because I remember we actually had a board in there where – [it said] when the takeover was supposed to occur, what was to happen, who was supposed to do it, and then, what was the occupation strategy. How were the students going to be fed? We arranged for grassroots people in Chester to cook and provide meals that were brought in everyday and passed through the window. Also, I set up a command center at my office so that the parents of the students had a place to call and stay abreast of activities so that they would know that their children were safe and that they [students] were being responsible. My staff and I at the office, we played that role at the time. During the negotiations, we just played a back-room role with them [SASS], but they [students] were the ones who – and we helped them shape their demands. But, essentially, all we did was provide the framework; the content of what the demands were and all of that strictly [came from] the students. We just served [in] a servant role, and as to protect them. When the announcement was made, we also helped with the coordination of the press releases to make sure that every aspect of it reflected these principles: of not attacking people, but attacking issues, and also of being respectful during negotiations. Also, to incorporate the needs of non-students in this as well - the kitchen personnel and whatnot. The students had also developed relationships [with the staff] because they used to do the income tax returns for some of the service personnel on campus. That’s kind of the background about how we – the flow between us, and the parents. I talked to a lot of parents, had everyone’s phone number. The parents had the phone number at the Media Fellowship House. We were like the command center. MM: You said that SASS members were the ones [who] wrote the demands, but that you helped them [SASS] shape them [the demands]. Can you tell us more about what was your opinion of the goals that motivated SASS? RW: They were all noble. Asmarom Lagesse was the only Black faculty member. He was Ethiopian. An anthropologist, I believe. And they wanted more Black faculty. They wanted Black administrators. Just to desegregate Swarthmore [laughing]. Which was what everybody was demanding at the time, to desegregate the campus. They wanted more done to attract more �   Robert  Woodson  Interview  4   minority students. They were not asking for a lowering of standards, they were just asking [for Swarthmore College] to be more inclusive. I think they were asking for scholarships for students. I’m not clear about the details, it’s been a long time, but I think that was the general gist of it. I mean they were not unreasonable demands. ARP: [whispering to MM] Do you want to go ahead with the next question? MM: Okay. You were talking about your office being the command center. Can you tell us a little bit more about how that worked logistically, about your office helping [to] coordinate the communication between students and their parents. Because they [students] were in there [Parrish Hall] for some time, and there were things happening outside. We heard that one young woman had a relative die in a standoff2 – RW: Killed. Yeah. I had spent some time in California, and I knew some of the people involved in that incident. I spent three summers before, I spent a whole summer with activists groups in Pasadena, California. I knew all of the activists out in Los Angeles, so I knew a lot of people out there. And there were some real severe differences between the Us Organization, run by Ron Karenga [Ronald McKinley Everett, also known as Maulana Karenga] and Huey Newton’s group, the Black Panther Party. There were severe differences, so it got – I talked to Clinton Etheridge not too long ago, and he reminded me of the name of the young lady [Ruth Wilson], he knows her. Her cousin was a student at UCLA [University  of  California,  Los  Angeles], and he was the one who was shot to death on campus. The mother called me, as soon as it happened, and asked me if I would get over to the campus to have the daughter – her first-cousin – call the mother before she [Ruth Wilson] saw it on the news. And as I rushed over to campus, it was just being reported on the news. She lost it. She saw pictures of her cousin being carried out, shot. I just comforted her, and then we arranged for her mom to come down and pick her up. We arranged for her to get to the airport, so that she would get home to be with her family. So that was one unfortunate situation, but that was the role we played. The mother had no other way of calling, so the mother and father called us and we rushed over there and told them what happened. But that was the role we were playing: to comfort in that situation. MM: When President Courtney Smith suffered a fatal heart attack, SASS ended the occupation, they left campus, and they stayed at the Media Fellowship House. This is correct? RW: Yes. But even before that, I think there’s something else you should know. There were two groups that tried to almost use SASS to turn that demonstration into something else, and that was the Weather Underground [the Weather Underground Organization]– they were on campus, a White radical leftist group – and also the Black Panthers tried to come and coopt it. But I brought a friend of mine, Jim Woodruff [Reverend James Woodruff] – he was an Episcopal priest, a very well known Black Episcopal priest and a very forceful leader in the Black Power movement in                                                                                                                 2  The  standoff  referenced  was  a  confrontation  between  the  Us  Organization  and  the  Black   Panther  Party  that  took  place  on  January  17,  1969  at  the  University  of  California,  Los   Angeles.  During  the  gunfight,  two  people  were  killed:  John  Huggins  and  Alprentice   “Bunchy”  Carter.  The  young  woman  was  a  Swarthmore  student  and  SASS  member,   identified  as  Ruth  Wilson,  who  was  related  to  one  of  the  victims.   �   Robert  Woodson  Interview  5   Philadelphia who was a good friend of mine. To kind of blunt that [outside influence], I brought him on campus and he met the students early on. He was just well known and well respected by everybody, so Jim and I agreed that we had to protect the students from both the Panthers and the Weather Underground. The students listened to us and told them [the Weather Underground and the Black Panther Party] that they [SASS] did not want their [the outsiders] help. The students just told them they didn’t want their help because they [outsiders] really wanted to turn it [the protest] into something violent. That’s what they wanted, but the students listened to us and just kept it that way [non-violent]. Then, when Courtney Smith died – I think he was 46 years old and he had the heart attack – the students called and said, “what should we do?” Well, first of all, we said that we’re going to call a moratorium. It’s not ending, but there was to be a moratorium. We wrote a press release that said, “we mourn for the death of Courtney Smith, the way we mourn for the deaths of kids in the inner city.” I think there were some members of the football team, and others, who really wanted to take violent action against the students. To neutralize that, I called a lot of the fellows in the community to come up and protect the students. We said to them, “it’s important for you to leave the facility and come to my office,” that way [we could] just keep tensions low. Rather than having the fellows from Chester come, and perhaps get into a violent confrontation with the [White] students, it would be better for the [SASS] students to leave. So, I arranged for ten cars to come up – caravan on campus. Two of the cars collected the luggage and the other eight - the students filled those. But these men also made certain that there were no confrontations between the student athletes and the young people [of SASS]. They made sure they were protected. So we caravan out. We also said to them, “it is important to leave the office the way you found it;” and the students cleaned it, put everything back in place, and left. Of course, the photographers rushed in and the Philadelphia Daily News reported that the students had trashed the office. So it was first reported that they trashed it, which was a lie. But then other television stations and others came out and corrected it. They showed pictures of everything in order. We went into a retreat for about two days, where we had some sessions talking about where do we go from here, and the state of the movement, etc. I remember saying to Clint [Clinton Etheridge] and others – the question is do they go to the memorial service – and I said, “it is absolutely necessary for you to show your respect and go to the memorial service.” So I picked up Clint and - Don Mizell? Yeah? MM: That’s his name, yeah [laughing]. RW: Yes, Don Mizell. I think he was a cousin to my first wife. MM: Oh, really? [laughing]. RW: Yes, Don Mizell is my first wife’s cousin. I said, “I will come and take you to [the memorial service]” – because Don [Mizell] was really one of the leaders and Clint was the public spokesperson. Don [Mizell] had more of an organization personality. I remember taking them to the memorial service and sitting in the front row. We said we would not comment to the press, but that we would just have a presence there. And just having their presence there really won over a lot of students. A lot of the bitterness and rancor that was attending a wrath of the word of his [President Courtney Smith] death was just really neutralized by Don Mizell and Clint coming �   Robert  Woodson  Interview  6   to the memorial service, and that sort of set the tone. A lot of students were coming up, praising them for coming to the memorial service, and showing the respect for Courtney Smith. Talking about how they mourned him and wished only the best for his family, and whatnot. After that, my role just kind of ended with the students. I don’t think they took up the occupation again, but I think negotiations continued between the students and the faculty, and some changes were made. I sort of ended my participation right after that, when Courtney Smith died. But my participation was very active from the beginning, during the prelude, and at the end. MM: Just to backtrack a little bit, so that I can understand what happened right after Courtney Smith’s death: how many students left campus with the cars that you organized? RW: All of them. MM: All of them? RW: All of the students. MM: All of the SASS students or all of the Black students? RW: All of SASS. That’s a good question. I was only involved with the SASS students. Most of the Black students were in SASS. There were like four or five who refused, but then the White students distanced themselves from those students and that kind of radicalized them. I remember four [Black] students were in the lunchroom – I was told – and White students asked them why they weren’t with SASS. And they [Black students] said, oh they don’t agree with SASS, so they [White students] just got up and left them because they said, “oh, we can’t respect you if you can’t even respect your own folks.” So that caused some of those four students to join SASS at that point. I mean, there weren’t that many Black students on campus at the time, so I think all of them were part of the demonstration. There may have been one or two who weren’t, but I don't recall. I think that 99% of the Black students were a part of SASS. MM: So – RW: If they were not involved, they were supporters. MM: Sorry to interrupt. So, all of the SASS students leave campus, and only Don Mizell and Clinton Etheridge attend the memorial service? RW: Yes. They were there to represent SASS. Just the two of them came to it [the memorial service]. We didn’t want to create a spectacle of all the students coming on down. We just felt that the leadership needed to be represented, so they [Don Mizell and Clinton Etheridge] were representing all the students. MM: And did you stay with them throughout that event? RW: Yeah, I drove them there and stayed with them – stayed in the background. I never made any public statements. That wasn’t my role. They were the ones who engineered it. They were �   Robert  Woodson  Interview  7   the ones who shaped it, [and] provided the content. I just supplied logistical support and tactical suggestions, and that’s all - just kind of coaching them on the tone. Acting to protect them, because they had no way of knowing about the Weathermen [colloquial name for the Weather Underground Organization]. But having Jim Woodruff there served to reduce any possibility of confrontation between us and those two groups [the Weather Underground and the Black Panther Party]. We had a real strong following in the community - I did - and Jim Woodruff was a very influential social force in Philadelphia at the time. A lot of people listened to him. ARP: Just to back up quickly, were the SASS members who didn’t go to the [memorial] service still at the Media Fellowship House or were they back on campus? RW: Yes, they were at the Media Fellowship House. All of them - all of their belongings, their clothes and personal effects. The Media Fellowship House at the time had a large recreation room where there were showers and, because it was Quaker-oriented, it was really built to house. It was an old mansion that was modified, so it had a huge dining hall with bathrooms and showers to accommodate the weekend work campers who came in from around the country. So the facility was just perfectly suited for them. ARP: Yeah RW: We just put sleeping bags all over the floor, everyone had plans to sleep and it was sanitary. We supplied meals for them. ARP: How long were they there for? RW: I would say four or five days. Until the memorial service was over, and then right after that they began to move back on campus.3 Maybe two or three days. Not very long because I think [SASS returned to campus] as soon as the memorial service was over. There was a level of camaraderie among the SASS students, as they began to filter back to campus, [and] old friendships began to get re-established. But they still were engaged in negotiations with the administration over their demands. They never did drop their demands nor did they pull back from them. I have no idea what happened after that or how many [demands] were met. My role was to get them through that. That’s what they asked me to do, and I limited my role to what they asked me to do and the things I felt I needed to do to protect them. I think it was one of the few takeovers in the country that remained peaceful and dignified. [In] the others, at Columbia [University]4 and other places, students were arrested, [there was] violence, people were gassed,                                                                                                                 3  Based  on  Mr.  Woodson’s  testimony  and  other  evidence  collected  during  this  research   project,  we  know  that  the  students  left  campus  on  January  16,  1969  when  President   Smith’s  death  was  announced  and  did  not  return  to  campus  until  after  the  memorial   service  in  Smith’s  honor  was  held  on  January  20.  If  they  returned  the  day  of  the  memorial   service  or  the  next  day,  then  the  members  of  SASS  were  in  the  Media  Fellowship  House  for   five  or  six  days.   4  Columbia  University  students  protested  the  school’s  connection  to  the  military  and  racist   policies,  specifically  the  University’s  involvement  in  the  Institute  for  Defense  Analyses   �   Robert  Woodson  Interview  8   and cops came on campus. There were some people killed [in those student protests]. Swarthmore’s [protest] was, I think, one of the few that proceeded the way that it did. MM: Don Mizell said something similar at an Alumni Weekend event that happened a couple of weeks ago. He said he was pleasantly surprised that SASS’ protest wasn’t met with more of a violent reaction, and I was wondering if you could talk more about threats of violence or violence that you were worried could happen when SASS decided to occupy Parrish Hall. RW: The concern that I had was not from SASS members, but that on our side that people like the Weather Underground and the Black Panthers - because what they do is come in and seize situations in the name of helping you but end up - and a lot of people that they encounter are naive. They’re not sophisticated enough to see through all of the trappings of revolution and all of this kind of stuff. They were not sophisticated [enough] to see through it, we were. So the danger came from outside, but it also came from inside: students, particularly student athletes who felt offended by all of this. And I’m sure there were some [Ku Klux] Klan elements in the larger community that perhaps would have come. I don’t know too much about that, but my experience is that there was a lot of Klan activity in West Chester where we did our demonstrations, so in that whole area of Delaware and Chester Counties we knew that there was always the threat that white supremacists would come and take advantage of the tensions. They were always looking for flashpoints. So we had to be vigilant about the threat from within and the threat from without. We were certain having the proper external leaders, like Jim Woodruff and myself, at the helm of this - and also Diane Palm [also known as Diane R. Palm]5 and Bob Johnson [Robert Johnson]6. These were prominent community leaders in Chester who were well known. The very fact that they had a presence with the students really served to fend off anybody who would attempt to use [the protest] and turn it into something violent. So it was an impromptu, spontaneous wall of protection that we built around the students, that even they weren’t aware of. But at least they trusted me [enough] that anyone that I brought to the table, they felt confident that they would be operating in their interests. MM: Can you talk more about that outside influence that you were worried was going to hurt SASS’ goals? RW: Yeah. In the movements at those times, you had all kinds of radicals - you had the “twopercenters.” These were just anarchists [and] they were more in the West Coast than in the East Coast, but they were people who believed in radical revolution and anarchy. I have been personally involved and I wrote about stopping a riot when they actually tried to firebomb a chemical plant right in the middle of the Black community, even though it was going to destroy a lot of Black families. But they felt it would inflame the passions of Blacks, who would then react and create a race war. There were just some crazy people around. I have personal experience seeing radicals on the left and radicals on the right. You had the Two Percenters, you had the                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     (IDA),  its  construction  of  a  gym  in  Morningside  Park  with  limited  access  for  Harlem   residents,  and  the  discrimination  against  Black  students  on  campus.     5  Former Director of the Community Assistance Project (CAP) in Chester.   6  Former  Director  of  the  Friends  Settlement  House  in  Chester.   �   Robert  Woodson  Interview  9   Weather Underground. White radical groups who bombed libraries at Harvard [University], shot at police officers, and did all kinds of things. Symbionese Revolutionary Army [United Federated Forces of the Symbionese Liberation Army] in San Francisco that killed Marcus Foster, a Black principal because he was requiring students to have identification badges in order to be on campus [and] they felt this was fascist.7 So you had, at that time, a lot of crazy elements operating around the Civil Rights Movement. Any time you had a demonstration where there was a takeover, there was always a danger of it devolving into a violent confrontation. You had to work hard, every day, to make certain that it [the protest] stayed [non-violent] and the secret was having strong leadership. Clint, Don Mizell, and the [SASS] students were clear that that’s what they wanted, that they didn’t want this other stuff. They weren’t, I think, knowledgeable enough to know what help they should receive and what they shouldn’t. But they listened to us and as a result of this relationship, it was fine. ARP and MM: [Speaking simultaneously]. MM: Oh, sorry. Go ahead. ARP: Could you maybe give us some more details of what was the specific advice you gave them [SASS] about how to navigate those outsiders? How were you suggesting that they handle that? RW: Stay away from them! Tell them, when they come and offer help: no, thank you. Don’t start the conversation in the first place. When they say: “well, we want to come and help,” say: “no, thanks, we have our own advisors.” “Can we come to meetings?” No, meetings are closed. “Can we help you with some money or something?” No, we don’t need your help. I just said to them, “you cannot accept any help at all of any kind.” ARP: Yeah. RW: Even to engage in discussion. Just say “no, thank you” and just turn and walk away. And that’s what we did. They will ask, “can I address the group?” No, you cannot address the group. You cannot appear at any meetings. Just total isolation, you’ve got to just not give them any pretense for coming and taking over or participating. Just total isolation. And I said, “if there’s any threats or anything like that, let us take care of that.” But when people see who is standing with you, it serves to neutralize that. So you don’t have confrontation if the composition of the people around you is strong enough, you don’t have confrontation. And they had no way of knowing that, but those of us who had been in the streets knew that, so that’s the expertise we brought to the table. We know how to keep people away from them, but they had to cooperate. They had to agree to do it. what I love about SASS [is that] they were not interested in just getting headlines, because a lot of people get involved and they take themselves a little too                                                                                                                 7  Members  of  the  United Federated Forces of the Symbionese Liberation Army (SLA) protested the Oakland, CA public schools’ proposal to require students to carry identification badges by shooting school officials Marcus Foster and Robert Blackburn on November 6, 1973. Blackburn survived, but Foster did not. Foster, a Black man who served as superintendent at the time, previously worked as a school principal and associate superintendent in Philadelphia, PA.   �   Robert  Woodson  Interview  10   seriously. Then, they get caught up in the media hype. But, SASS never did. They were more interested in content and not making headlines. MM: Earlier you contrasted the influence of these outside activists with the influence of community members such as [Reverend James] Woodruff, and I was wondering if there were other ministers or churches, or people in the community who supported SASS or who worked with SASS? RW: I didn’t know any others. All the people that I know helped, who were a part of our movement, were all neighborhood leaders. Diane Palm, who I’m still close to. She lives in Houston, Texas now. She was a teacher and we ran a program called Community Assistance Program. We helped ex-offenders on the streets. So, Diane was very happy - and Bill Sanders. There were about ten people who were very active in Chester at the time, but they were supportive of SASS. That was sort of our group. And these were the people who know people, so that I can in ten minutes, when Courtney Smith died - within half an hour - I had ten people identified with cars ready to come up on campus. ARP: Yeah. RW: [laughing] Yeah. I think that people like the Panthers knew we had that kind of influence also, so they didn’t challenge us. But, we couldn’t have done it if SASS wasn’t cooperative, if they were not coachable. And they were always very, very coachable. An intelligent person knows their limits, and a secure person knows their limits. They were all, I think, very intelligent, and very secure in who they were. Not a single one of them, I think, ever just wanted to make headlines. That why I found it easy to deal with SASS. MM: Earlier you mentioned that SASS had a good relationship with the Black staff members on campus, and we actually found a document titled "Open Letter to the Parents of Black Students of Swarthmore College," which was signed by a few Black staff members. Specifically: William and Eileen Cline, Edwin and DeLois Collins, Harold Hoffman, Robert and Lee Williams, and Rachel Williams. I’m just wondering if you remember any of these people? RW: No, I don’t. MM: Do you remember the kind of relationship that SASS had with the Black staff on campus? RW: I really didn’t even know any of the Black staff, but I heard [of their relationships with SASS] because some of them lived in Chester. The word I got on the street was: the reason that the community supported them [SASS] was because they supported some of the Black staff and never acted as if they were better than them [the staff] because they went to Swarthmore. They never took themselves too seriously because they were students of Swarthmore, and that helped a great deal. They obviously didn’t get in a class divide and that’s the reason there was so much affection between the low-income neighborhood leaders - Chester, remember, is one of the poorest communities in the state. For SASS to have a good, solid relationship with the people like that was pretty amazing at the time. �   Robert  Woodson  Interview  11   MM: Do you think it was risky for these staff members to openly express their support for SASS? RW: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I mean, it was risky for them and that’s why I think SASS wanted to make sure that they were protected by including them in it, so that anything that happened to the staff members happened to SASS. I haven’t seen that happen before. A lot of these movements are just self-centered and were not expansive to include others, you know. That’s, again, what was unique about the SASS movement. They were very, very inclusive in terms of class. Very, very inclusive. ARP: [whispering to MM] Can I move on to question six? MM: Yeah, do you want to - ? ARP: Sure. So we were reading that on January 10th, the day after the sit-in started, SASS representatives Clinton Etheridge and Don Mizell met with President Smith’s assistant Gilmore Stott at the Media Fellowship House. According to the campus paper [the Phoenix], it said that the press conference was open to any press person but that you had asked that they not come into the meeting between the SASS representatives and Mr. Stott. Is that an accurate portrayal? RW: Yeah. When you’re negotiating, you want people to negotiate on issues ARP: Yeah. RW: And not get sidetracked by trying to pitch to press. It’s very bad to have press in when you’re negotiating because you’re going to be changing your mind, you’re going to be shifting around, and you don’t want people to play to the press. ARP: Yeah. RW: Then you can make a statement afterwards. But I thought the worst thing in the world was to have the press in when you’re negotiating. ARP: Yeah. Had you been in contact with Swarthmore administrators before that? Were they familiar with you? Had you worked with them at all? RW: [laughing] Not directly, but our reputation was pretty good in the area. The Media Fellowship House was started by Quakers, as was Swarthmore, and many of the members of the board are Swarthmore - some of them are Swarthmore trustees, some of them either attended Swarthmore or had kids in Swarthmore - so there was a symbiotic relationship between Media Fellowship House and Swarthmore. No formal relationship, but just an informal one because people went back and forth. The Biddle family, from Bailey Banks & Biddle, they were one of the founders of Media Fellowship House and, I think, a large supporter of Swarthmore, for example. Then, a lot of the work camps - I was a member of the American Friends Service Committee and did a lot of work with the Friends Service Committee, so I knew Swarthmore people and they knew me through the American Friends Service Committee. There’s a retreat, I �   Robert  Woodson  Interview  12   forgot the name of it, but there’s a Quaker retreat right in the area8 and I met Swarthmore faculty at these presentations at retreats and things like that. But that was about all. But, I know everyone was in shock when this happened at Swarthmore. It was the biggest shock because of Swarthmore’s liberal reputation. They just didn’t expect it to happen. Interesting time. MM: So you were talking about organizing this luncheon, and organizing the communication between SASS students and their parents. How else was your office, as the “command center,” supportive of SASS during the actual RW: Just raise money to provide resources that they need for press releases and food. We had a budget for that [laughing] People made donations to help them, from Chester and from my organization. That was about all. It was pretty much limited to making our facility available to them. We did nothing else during that period but support SASS. I mean, all of our time and energy was spent helping them. We suspended everything else, and just helped them. MM: And besides the Media Fellowship House, you were affiliated with CHIP [Chester Home Improvement Project]9 during that time? RW: The what? MM: With CHIP. What was the other organization you mentioned? RW: Yeah. I forgot CHIP. I forgot. Yeah, there were a couple other organizations. CHIP - I forgot what the acronym was, but I know that was in Chester. There was CHIP, and there were quite a few organizations. Everybody had an acronym. RW and MM: [Laughing]. MM: So these organizations were in Media, Chester, and RW: Chester mostly. MM: Mostly Chester? RW: Yeah. Media is kind of a sleepy, little middle- and upper-income enclave. I think South Media had a little, small - but all the families go back centuries, almost. You see a name of a Black family Darlington and a White Darlington, then you see Darlington Road [laughing].                                                                                                                 8  In  1930,  Pendle  Hill  was  established  to  uphold  the  educational  and  spiritual  values  of  the   Religious  Society  of  Friends.  This  Quaker  retreat  center  is  located  in  Wallingford,  PA,  less   than  two  miles  from  Swarthmore  College.     9  Lowell  Livezey,  Swarthmore  College  class  of  1966,  founded  the  Chester  Home   Improvement  Project  (CHIP)  in  1965  with  the  sponsorship  of  the  Robert  Wade   Neighborhood  House.  CHIP’s  mission  was  to  improve  the  housing  conditions  of  working-­‐ class  people  in  Chester,  PA.  SASS  members  involved  in  the  1969  sit-­‐in  volunteered  with   CHIP.  The  organization’s  records  are  located  at  the  Temple  University  Urban  Archives.   �   Robert  Woodson  Interview  13   Quakers, as you know, let their slaves go. Released them and then gave them land, so you have like Concord and all these little Black enclaves that go back 200 years all over that area. Interesting history. Some of the old mansions, you can just see the Underground Railroad tunnels that lead from a person’s house out to the field. [Emergency service vehicle sirens in the background]. MM: Wow. RW: You can still some of those in Wallingford and Chichester, and all like that. Some of the old mansions maintained that antebellum kind of history there. MM: So, I think we’re getting ready to wrap this up, but I wanted to ask about the end of the protest. You said that once President Courtney Smith passed away, that was the end of your RW: Involvement. MM: Involvement. But, can you tell us if Black Swarthmore students continued to work in Chester, and if you continued to be involved with them through that space, like their mentoring or tutoring in Chester? RW: No, I don’t recall. I don’t recall. I just know that we moved on to other things, other issues since our goal was just - [sirens get louder] an ambulance service. [laughing] So, once the service was delivered MM: Yeah. RW and MM: [Laughing]. MM: Once you made it out alive [laughing]. RW: After everybody got out alive, and everybody was talking and whatnot, we just kind of went to other things. I saw some of them - I left and went to work in Boston for two years, and I think Don was in Harvard Law School, so I ran into Clint Etheridge and those who went to Harvard Law School. I saw them in Boston, occasionally, socially. I remember they came up. Most of them went to law school, I think. Marilyn Holifield. MM: Yeah. RW: And Don Mizell I know went to Harvard because I used to see him at my office. I don’t know where Clint went. Someplace. But I know Don and Marilyn Holifield came to Boston. That was it. Again, mine was an ambulance service [laughing]. MM: Do you have any other questions Ali? ARP: I don’t. �   Robert  Woodson  Interview  14   MM: Is there anything else you want to make sure we make a note of? Anything we didn’t ask you about? RW: I wasn’t clear what role Asmarom Legesse - I know he was a very nice guy, I don’t know if he’s still around or no, but he was an interesting guy. He was the only Black faculty, he was very supportive. No, that’s about it. We just about covered everything: how we [SASS and I] met, and then what our role was, what their role was, the incident involving the death of Courtney Smith. I think what’s important for me, that I remember most, is just how sophisticated and self-confident the students were to be so young and not get caught up in the hype of the movement. Because a lot of people in movements get impressed with themselves when they’re on television or in the newspapers, and that becomes an attraction and a distraction. So they get defined by the distraction [laughing] and not the content of what they were about. But SASS never wavered from that, and I think that’s why their movement was the subject of a Life magazine profile. Because of the dignified way they handled it. Columbia, you don’t see anything about Columbia. That was a mess. Some students got barred forever from going back to school. I knew some young people who went through that, they never went back to college. That was it. ARP: Yeah. MM: Well, thank you for your time. ARP: Thank you. MM: This has been really informative and it’s really wonderful to hear from someone who was there, and who had a little more experience or a little bit more wisdom to see what was going on during that time. Because I’m sure it was an emotional, trying time for people involved in that protest. But, thank you so much for sharing your story with us. RW: Yeah, because a lot of people who try to help people, they use them for their own purposes. ARP: Yeah. RW: They had to be careful. I had to be an example of what I was telling them to avoid [laughing]. So, I tried to be faithful to that. Not getting involved in determining what their demands were, just being on tap but not on top. That’s very hard sometimes for people who try to help. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interviews Description An account of the resource Audio files, transcriptions and photographs documenting the interviews of Swarthmore College alumni, former faculty, and community activists who played an active role in the Black activism at Swarthmore College from 1968 to 1972. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Black Liberation 1969 Research Team Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Robert Woodson Interview Transcription Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Robert Woodson Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 06/24/2014 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource .pdf 1969 sit-in Clinton Etheridge Courtney Smith's death Don Mizell Marilyn Holifield Media Fellowship House Robert Woodson Ruth Wilson http://s3.amazonaws.com/sc-lib-ds-bl1969/original/8f7e3d712805984926f19f18e231353f.jpg 6146e0524a81afe611169a241351b39f http://s3.amazonaws.com/sc-lib-ds-bl1969/original/f6d5bac92d1e12b67a004c07e1c527eb.mp3 f7bb8caf0b66806e5875052ca4449290 http://s3.amazonaws.com/sc-lib-ds-bl1969/original/3c864ee2506d87a9dae7f0e0e59dbe22.pdf 259bda60c3fc6b32026679434fb52378 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interviews Description An account of the resource Audio files, transcriptions and photographs documenting the interviews of Swarthmore College alumni, former faculty, and community activists who played an active role in the Black activism at Swarthmore College from 1968 to 1972. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Black Liberation 1969 Research Team Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview John Gagnon Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Steve Piker Location The location of the interview Steve Piker's House Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1 hour, 45 minutes Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Steve Piker Interview Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Steve Piker John Gagnon Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available [n.p.] Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 06/24/2014 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource mp3 Black Studies Faculty http://s3.amazonaws.com/sc-lib-ds-bl1969/original/1234ac887c62b4f09624a0689264b0ea.pdf 8289668ec1b5ff9a9f374c5653054b6d PDF Text Text � � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Delaware County Daily Times Description An account of the resource A daily newspaper with headquarters in Upper Darby Township, Delaware County, Pennsylvania. The articles, editorials and announcements included here were published between September 1968 and December 1972. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived McCabe Library Microfilm Archives Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Quakers won't ask injunction to oust Wade House 'invaders' Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Delaware County Daily Times Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 06/25/1969 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource .pdf Robert Woodson http://s3.amazonaws.com/sc-lib-ds-bl1969/original/e89f9c752c4338af37f67078939c7863.pdf 75438cc1867d6edfa184ce2c3650c1ed PDF Text Text '" 28 June 1971 Dear Congressman Eilberg: ~ . Thank you for your courtesy in sending me a copy of the letter dated June 15 which you received from J. Edgar Hoover . I appreciate very much your following up on my letter to you about my statement on FBI activities on this campus and elsewhere, and I suspect you share some of my despondency at the intransigent tone of Mr. Hoover 's, reply . Do you have any suggestions about further steps I might take? I have received a generally strong letter of support from our colleague in the academic community, a somewhat hostile one from Congressman Wi lliams, and a neu~ tral one from Senator Scott. I have no predilection for laboring at hopeless causes, but I am stubborn enough , when I think I am right - as I do here - to ~ exp lore every avenue that may be suggested that might lead to a more benign situation than I am afraid now exists . Any advice that you could give me would be most appreciated . With all best wishes, Yours sincerely, Robert D. Cross , President The Honorable Joshu~ Eilberg Congress of the United States House of Representatives Was hington, D. C. 20515 �~ ((ongrt~S ~ouse of tl)t 'I1nittb ~. (t. ~tattS of l\epresentatibes Ulassbington. June 17, 1971 Dear Dr. Cross: FROM , JOS,HUA EILBERG �." , ~D N HOOV ER DIRECTOR ~GAR Federal Bureau of Investigation United States Department of Justice Washington, D. C. "f'\ June 15, 1911 H onorable Joshua Eilberg House of Representatives Washington, D. C. 20515 M dear Congressman: y I have received your let.ter of June lOth eon... cerning a communication from President Cross of Swarthntore College. It is certainly regrettable that Dr. Cross has chosen to make such a $weepinq indiatinent. of the PSI and its activities. The FBI has not sought to determine politieal beliefs of students and teaehers G he charges; however, legitimate inquiry by this Bureau into the activities of t.hose who advocate ana:rohy, revolution or other acts in violation of Federal law is a proper function of the Fin and we would be derelict in our duty if we did not investigate such matters. The fact that the persons involved fOX'lllulate their plans or carryon their 8,ctivltieson a. college oampus should not, per se, grant them freedom to flaunt the law. FSI invest.igations are not intended to, and should not, intimidate others merely because they espouse an unpopular or controversial policy. I must also point out. tbat the FBI, as a Bureau within the Department of JUstice, conte$ under the supervision and control of the Attorney General. Additional~y, our duties and responsibilities are olearly defined by legislation enacted by the Congress or by Executive Order of the President • All of our investigations. are conducted within the guidelines of,nd in accordance with, directives of the Oepartment. We do not oonduot investigations �Honorable Joshua Eilberg on the basis of whim or fancy, but only for let;Iitimate authorized purposes and will continue to do so as long as I am the Director of this Bureau. Should the fulfillment of our responsibilities require that. we conduct investigation on any college campus r we shall do SQ wit.hout apology to anyone and with full respect. for the freedom of the academic community. Legislative ~ction or administrative fiat to limit the seope of our inquiries in tbemanner sU9'gested by Dr. Cross would not serve the best interests of the country, but would permit those who conspire against our Nation, to hide bebind a smokescreen of rhetoric. Sincerely yours, J . Edgar HooveJ! - 2 - � '" 28 June 1971 Dear Congressman Eilberg: ~ . Thank you for your courtesy in sending me a copy of the letter dated June 15 which you received from J. Edgar Hoover . I appreciate very much your following up on my letter to you about my statement on FBI activities on this campus and elsewhere, and I suspect you share some of my despondency at the intransigent tone of Mr. Hoover 's, reply . Do you have any suggestions about further steps I might take? I have received a generally strong letter of support from our colleague in the academic community, a somewhat hostile one from Congressman Wi lliams, and a neu~ tral one from Senator Scott. I have no predilection for laboring at hopeless causes, but I am stubborn enough , when I think I am right - as I do here - to ~ exp lore every avenue that may be suggested that might lead to a more benign situation than I am afraid now exists . Any advice that you could give me would be most appreciated . With all best wishes, Yours sincerely, Robert D. Cross , President The Honorable Joshu~ Eilberg Congress of the United States House of Representatives Was hington, D. C. 20515 �~ ((ongrt~S ~ouse of tl)t 'I1nittb ~. (t. ~tattS of l\epresentatibes Ulassbington. June 17, 1971 Dear Dr. Cross: FROM , JOS,HUA EILBERG �." , ~D N HOOV ER DIRECTOR ~GAR Federal Bureau of Investigation United States Department of Justice Washington, D. C. "f'\ June 15, 1911 H onorable Joshua Eilberg House of Representatives Washington, D. C. 20515 M dear Congressman: y I have received your let.ter of June lOth eon... cerning a communication from President Cross of Swarthntore College. It is certainly regrettable that Dr. Cross has chosen to make such a $weepinq indiatinent. of the PSI and its activities. The FBI has not sought to determine politieal beliefs of students and teaehers G he charges; however, legitimate inquiry by this Bureau into the activities of t.hose who advocate ana:rohy, revolution or other acts in violation of Federal law is a proper function of the Fin and we would be derelict in our duty if we did not investigate such matters. The fact that the persons involved fOX'lllulate their plans or carryon their 8,ctivltieson a. college oampus should not, per se, grant them freedom to flaunt the law. FSI invest.igations are not intended to, and should not, intimidate others merely because they espouse an unpopular or controversial policy. I must also point out. tbat the FBI, as a Bureau within the Department of JUstice, conte$ under the supervision and control of the Attorney General. Additional~y, our duties and responsibilities are olearly defined by legislation enacted by the Congress or by Executive Order of the President • All of our investigations. are conducted within the guidelines of,nd in accordance with, directives of the Oepartment. We do not oonduot investigations �Honorable Joshua Eilberg on the basis of whim or fancy, but only for let;Iitimate authorized purposes and will continue to do so as long as I am the Director of this Bureau. Should the fulfillment of our responsibilities require that. we conduct investigation on any college campus r we shall do SQ wit.hout apology to anyone and with full respect. for the freedom of the academic community. Legislative ~ction or administrative fiat to limit the seope of our inquiries in tbemanner sU9'gested by Dr. Cross would not serve the best interests of the country, but would permit those who conspire against our Nation, to hide bebind a smokescreen of rhetoric. Sincerely yours, J . Edgar HooveJ! - 2 - � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Robert Cross Papers Description An account of the resource Correspondence, reports, recommendations, statements, and news clippings from students, administrators, board members, and alums. All of these documents passed through the Swarthmore President's Office during Robert Cross' time there. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Friends Historical Library Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Correspondence between Robert Cross, Congressman Eilberg, and J. Edgar Hoover, 06/1971] Description An account of the resource Box 03, Federal Bureau of Investigation Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Robert Cross Joshua Eilberg J. Edgar Hoover Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 06/28/1971 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource PDF FBI President's Office http://s3.amazonaws.com/sc-lib-ds-bl1969/original/4af75e45a676703b1f97d97cfab5fcf2.pdf 74b189a5697dcc28627313c764f17c38 PDF Text Text " 28 June 1971 De ar Mr . William,s:, Thank you for your letter of June 23rd replying to my letter of June 1st, concerning Swarthmore College's relationship with the FBI. We in the administration have always endeavored to have an open and cooperative relationship with the FBI , as with other government agencies, and I hope that can be the pattern for the future . Certainly , we will do everything in our power to sustain that relations hip . I have to add, however, that if the experience of Jacqueline Reuss, daughter of Congressman Reuss, is to be reckoned with, or if the reports from Tom Lewis were correct and are to be credited, it is hard to escape the conc lusion that some members of the FBI were telling the administration one thing , and acting quite differently . I am sure you will agree that that is a poor basis for straightforward cooperation towards legitimate goals . We would not want Swarthmore College or its students or its staff to be immune in any way from the obligations of being good citizens, but the apparent lack of trust which the FBI placed in the College administration could not help but undermine relationships within the College, and make much more difficult one of our central tasks, which ! take to be the training of our students to work openly and public-spiritedly in support of good government and the democratic process . Let me repeat that I hope that before too long we will have a chance to meet and become acquainted. With all best wishes, 1/ / \ Yours sincerely, Robert D. Cross, President Congressman Lawrence G. Williams 1503 Longworth House Office Building Washington, D.C. 20515 �AWRENCE G . WILLIAMS 7TH DISTRICT, PENNSYLVANIA COMMITTEES: ,. BANKING AND CURRENCY STANDARDS OF OFFICIAL CONDUCT DISTRiCT OFFICE : 50 POWELL ROAD SPRINGFIELD, 1503 LoNGWORTH HOUSE OFFICE BUILDING ROBERT R. SIEGRIST A.DMINISTRATIVE ASSISTANT CAROL A. DITZLER EXECUTIVE SECRETARY ~ongrt!i!i of tbt Wnittb ~tatt!i -' rtJouse of l\epresentatibes .ll~biugtou, 1D.~. PA. 19064 JAMES E. BROOKES ADMINISTRATIVE ASSISTANT 20515 June 23, 1971 Mr. Robert D. Cross President Swarthmore College Swarthmore, Pennsylvania Dear Mr. Cross: 19081 This will acknowledge receipt of your letter of June 1, 1971, received in my Washington office . on June 5, 1971, relative to FBI intervention in our colleges • . In answer to the question in your letter of June 1, 1971, you can count on my assistance. However, I want you to know that I have never had any difficulty in communicating with the FBI. The FBI usually comes to a college campus only when there is sufficient evidence that an individual student, or a group of students, are engaging in activities that can lead to violence or could be subversive. Your interest in writing to me is deeply appreciated. Kindest regards. ~ LGW:wjab LAWRENCE G. WILLIAMS, M. C. >. � " 28 June 1971 De ar Mr . William,s:, Thank you for your letter of June 23rd replying to my letter of June 1st, concerning Swarthmore College's relationship with the FBI. We in the administration have always endeavored to have an open and cooperative relationship with the FBI , as with other government agencies, and I hope that can be the pattern for the future . Certainly , we will do everything in our power to sustain that relations hip . I have to add, however, that if the experience of Jacqueline Reuss, daughter of Congressman Reuss, is to be reckoned with, or if the reports from Tom Lewis were correct and are to be credited, it is hard to escape the conc lusion that some members of the FBI were telling the administration one thing , and acting quite differently . I am sure you will agree that that is a poor basis for straightforward cooperation towards legitimate goals . We would not want Swarthmore College or its students or its staff to be immune in any way from the obligations of being good citizens, but the apparent lack of trust which the FBI placed in the College administration could not help but undermine relationships within the College, and make much more difficult one of our central tasks, which ! take to be the training of our students to work openly and public-spiritedly in support of good government and the democratic process . Let me repeat that I hope that before too long we will have a chance to meet and become acquainted. With all best wishes, 1/ / \ Yours sincerely, Robert D. Cross, President Congressman Lawrence G. Williams 1503 Longworth House Office Building Washington, D.C. 20515 �AWRENCE G . WILLIAMS 7TH DISTRICT, PENNSYLVANIA COMMITTEES: ,. BANKING AND CURRENCY STANDARDS OF OFFICIAL CONDUCT DISTRiCT OFFICE : 50 POWELL ROAD SPRINGFIELD, 1503 LoNGWORTH HOUSE OFFICE BUILDING ROBERT R. SIEGRIST A.DMINISTRATIVE ASSISTANT CAROL A. DITZLER EXECUTIVE SECRETARY ~ongrt!i!i of tbt Wnittb ~tatt!i -' rtJouse of l\epresentatibes .ll~biugtou, 1D.~. PA. 19064 JAMES E. BROOKES ADMINISTRATIVE ASSISTANT 20515 June 23, 1971 Mr. Robert D. Cross President Swarthmore College Swarthmore, Pennsylvania Dear Mr. Cross: 19081 This will acknowledge receipt of your letter of June 1, 1971, received in my Washington office . on June 5, 1971, relative to FBI intervention in our colleges • . In answer to the question in your letter of June 1, 1971, you can count on my assistance. However, I want you to know that I have never had any difficulty in communicating with the FBI. The FBI usually comes to a college campus only when there is sufficient evidence that an individual student, or a group of students, are engaging in activities that can lead to violence or could be subversive. Your interest in writing to me is deeply appreciated. Kindest regards. ~ LGW:wjab LAWRENCE G. WILLIAMS, M. C. >. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Robert Cross Papers Description An account of the resource Correspondence, reports, recommendations, statements, and news clippings from students, administrators, board members, and alums. All of these documents passed through the Swarthmore President's Office during Robert Cross' time there. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Friends Historical Library Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Correspondence between Robert Cross and Congressman Williams, 06/1971] Description An account of the resource Box 03, Federal Bureau of Investigation Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Robert Cross Lawrence Williams Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 06/28/1971 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource PDF FBI President's Office http://s3.amazonaws.com/sc-lib-ds-bl1969/original/f3728366c8cf3f85be05668e70492776.pdf 365f704cdb41e30702907ec3d7058e25 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Courtney Smith Papers Description An account of the resource Correspondence, reports, recommendations, statements, and news clippings from students, administrators, board members, and alums. All of these documents passed through the Swarthmore President's Office during Courtney Smith's time there. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Friends Historical Library Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource A Report to the President and the Faculty of Swarthmore College on The Admissions Office 1962-1964 Description An account of the resource Box 01, "Admissions 1964" Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource John Hoy Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 07/01/1964 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource PDF Black admissions http://s3.amazonaws.com/sc-lib-ds-bl1969/original/f7404e13f0e8ebc78a35ed029cca3f15.pdf 2dd6f92050bd1c8b897c0ffb8fd70e32 PDF Text Text �� Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Media Fellowship House Description An account of the resource Correspondence, newspaper articles, promotional materials, and organizational reports from the Media Fellowship House relevant to the Black activism at Swarthmore College from 1968 to 1972. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Media Fellowship House Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Letter from Alfred Herbert, Jr. to William Sennett, 07/01/1969] Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Alfred Herbert, Jr. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Media Fellowship House Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 07/01/1969 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource .pdf Media Fellowship House http://s3.amazonaws.com/sc-lib-ds-bl1969/original/48d2f7ac2d20e9401647673b99c15ee9.pdf 6c922b7990bcfb84626d7ff993109ed0 PDF Text Text � � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Delaware County Daily Times Description An account of the resource A daily newspaper with headquarters in Upper Darby Township, Delaware County, Pennsylvania. The articles, editorials and announcements included here were published between September 1968 and December 1972. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived McCabe Library Microfilm Archives Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Racial forum slated in Media Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Delaware County Daily Times Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 07/03/1968 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource .pdf Media Fellowship House Robert Woodson http://s3.amazonaws.com/sc-lib-ds-bl1969/original/83c6ab59499c48ca72313cc567031e28.pdf 49580010823a69c3267b02d1d25a2b7d PDF Text Text � � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Delaware County Daily Times Description An account of the resource A daily newspaper with headquarters in Upper Darby Township, Delaware County, Pennsylvania. The articles, editorials and announcements included here were published between September 1968 and December 1972. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived McCabe Library Microfilm Archives Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Media Fellowship appoints director Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Delaware County Daily Times Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 07/05/1969 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource .pdf Media Fellowship House Robert Woodson http://s3.amazonaws.com/sc-lib-ds-bl1969/original/6f5416a6bd2c40b13cb5520106bfee8d.pdf f2243efed64c5df24035ab66818f6e4a PDF Text Text � � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Delaware County Daily Times Description An account of the resource A daily newspaper with headquarters in Upper Darby Township, Delaware County, Pennsylvania. The articles, editorials and announcements included here were published between September 1968 and December 1972. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived McCabe Library Microfilm Archives Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Recreation assistance is needed Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Delaware County Daily Times Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 07/06/1968 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource .pdf Media Fellowship House Robert Woodson http://s3.amazonaws.com/sc-lib-ds-bl1969/original/3ab1b10f536ef5920221338507d1defd.pdf 00464cf624ef6e2919128c9f3c71db7d PDF Text Text � � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Delaware County Daily Times Description An account of the resource A daily newspaper with headquarters in Upper Darby Township, Delaware County, Pennsylvania. The articles, editorials and announcements included here were published between September 1968 and December 1972. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived McCabe Library Microfilm Archives Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Chamber on sidelines Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Robert L. Woodson Delaware County Daily Times Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 07/08/1968 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource .pdf Media Fellowship House Robert Woodson http://s3.amazonaws.com/sc-lib-ds-bl1969/original/b2e6f2fb91742a172a981231f33b8563.pdf f69c47b5589221ad302677c2193da7b3 PDF Text Text � � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Delaware County Daily Times Description An account of the resource A daily newspaper with headquarters in Upper Darby Township, Delaware County, Pennsylvania. The articles, editorials and announcements included here were published between September 1968 and December 1972. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived McCabe Library Microfilm Archives Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Media Fellowship director 'gets involved' Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Pamela Erbe Delaware County Daily Times Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 07/12/1969 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource .pdf Robert Woodson http://s3.amazonaws.com/sc-lib-ds-bl1969/original/840f61b363c580e1f44b8bcebd61c007.jpg 2cb1beb8bfe01374efe6f1a1a9038c24 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Robert Cross Papers Description An account of the resource Correspondence, reports, recommendations, statements, and news clippings from students, administrators, board members, and alums. All of these documents passed through the Swarthmore President's Office during Robert Cross' time there. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Friends Historical Library Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Memo re Black Studies Committee, 13 July 1972] Description An account of the resource Box 12, Black Curriculum Committee Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Edward Cratsley Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 07/13/1972 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource JPG Black Studies Faculty President's Office http://s3.amazonaws.com/sc-lib-ds-bl1969/original/e0155c1b57f92c6468f30ec1d8bba2eb.pdf 5fe4b0aefdc5caa72f61c7ceecac09a8 PDF Text Text Interview with Diane Batts Morrow, who graduated from Swarthmore College in 1969. She earned her PhD in history from the University of Georgia, and is author of the book Persons of Color and Religious at the Same Time: The Oblate Sisters of Providence, 1828-1860. She now teaches History and African American Studies at the University of Georgia. Interview conducted by Alison Roseberry-Polier, research assistant, on July 15, 2014, at the home of Diane Batts Morrow. The transcription is word-for-word, with the exception of filler words. At the end, there is an addendum written over email the following week. Alison Roseberry-Polier: OK, so, to begin with could you tell me a little bit about your time at Swarthmore, what you were involved in doing, what you spent your time on, just to give me an overview and a sense of what your time was like? Diane Batts Morrow: OK, I will dig deep into the recesses of my brain to recall. I guess it was almost 50 years ago because I graduated 45 years ago. I was a history major at Swarthmore. I think I worked on the school newspaper. I was the circulation department for a while. I wasn’t involved in athletics or anything like that. Let’s see, I early on discovered I wanted to be a history major, and I think for me the biggest intellectual experience at Swarthmore was discovering the huge difference between history as presented at Swarthmore and history as presented in high school. I hated history in high school, and when I got to Swarthmore we were talking about concepts and ideas and people in a new way. It not only made sense, but it made history really important, so I was delighted at that discovery and decided to be a history major early on. I was not particularly active in any clubs or organizations and – let’s see, what did I do when I was there? I was a senior resident my senior year. I did get involved with the Upward Bound program. I was a counselor on the Upward Bound program for my junior and senior years and that was a really important and wonderful experience for me. Other than that, I don’t really have a whole lot to say. Classes were good, I had friends, and although I lived in Philadelphia, I stayed on campus, and I remember distinctly that it cost exactly one dollar to go home on the Media local. It was as if I lived much farther away because I did not go home any more than people who lived a significant distance did. I really did appreciate and enjoy my Swarthmore experience. ARP: Thank you. Could you narrow in, tell me about your understanding of the events of the 1968-1969 year, especially as it relates to admissions policy and the SASS takeover? DBM: Yes. I remember I attended the first meeting, the organizational meeting, for SASS, and did not particularly appreciate the tenor or the tone of it. First of all there were individuals who were not Swarthmore students who were there who essentially organized it, and were telling the black students who attended, ‘don’t speak to white students, don’t speak to anyone, we’ll tell you what to say and what to do.’ And of course, this seemed to go against all the principles and values I had – my parents and my home, and certainly the thought of independent thinking would seem to go against it. It seemed really outrageous for these total strangers to come in and think they had the authority to tell me what to think, to whom I could speak, et cetera et cetera. So I essentially walked out of that first meeting, essentially saying that my own parents, who are paying my tuition, do not presume to tell me what to think and with whom I can associate, and so you have no authority to do that either, and so I did not join SASS, was quite troubled by the seeming intention of it, and so I did not join the organization. I did not participate in the student 1 �sit-in in the admissions office. I had a different perspective on what Swarthmore could do in terms of increasing black enrollment. Now, I can’t remember the exact size of the classes at the time, but my entering class in 1965, I think there were 16 people of African descent – as it turned out, in the tradition of the Quaker matchbox, 8 men and 8 women, although the college really couldn’t control that. Obviously they had admitted more who chose to go elsewhere, but 16 people of African descent in that small class seemed significant. They were of varied backgrounds and locations and experiences. And I had no problem with the thought of increasing the enrollment of black students, but what I was concerned about was this feeling that in order to increase black enrollment you automatically had to go into schools where, I guess inner-city schools, and recruit students who may or may not have the kind of background – I mean, to be very honest, Swarthmore at the time and still I believe enjoys this reputation of being an academically elite institution of people who are very committed to and excel in academic work. The presumption that in order to increase your black enrollment you had to recruit from inner city schools seemed very problematic. For one thing, Swarthmore really at the time did not recruit. I mean, I think that Dean Hargadon, who was the dean of admissions, he would go to California. But they never went into the South, they never went into other areas where you would find students who were really very academically prepared to attend Swarthmore. And I think in a sense the presumption that you had to go to inner city schools to increase your enrollment was, in a sense, racist – that there were not black students who existed elsewhere who would have heard of Swarthmore who would be interested in going. And so I thought that was rather a wrongheaded approach. At the same time, of course, with my work on Upward Bound, working with the students from Chester, I realized that there certainly were students almost anywhere who were committed to improving academically and who would be interested in coming to Swarthmore. So this whole idea of going into Harlem or going into Compton and that’s where you were going to recruit seemed unnecessary and frankly kind of stereotyped to me. ARP: Yeah. Just to back up quickly for one second, when was the first SASS meeting that you went to? DBM: It was in 1968, I can’t really recall. And if it wasn’t the first it was among the first because they were still organizing. ARP: OK. So SASS hadn’t existed before 1968? DBM: No. As far as I’m concerned it did not. It certainly was not in existence in ’65 and ’66, and I don’t think it was there in ’67. I really think it was ’68, though I wouldn’t swear to that. I think that if there are materials, other materials might indicate otherwise. But it certainly did not exist in my first couple of years there at Swarthmore. I think it was pretty much a 1968, late ’67 maybe, ’68 phenomenon. ARP: OK. And was the meeting that you went to in the fall of 1968, or the spring? DBM: That I don’t remember. ARP: OK, that’s fine, thank you. 2 �DBM: I believe it took place in the dining hall. I’m not sure about that though. But I can’t tell which particular time. I think, because of my decision not to participate, that kind of historic information escaped me. ARP: Yeah, definitely, that makes sense. So, were there changes that you would have liked to see in Swarthmore’s admissions policy, or Swarthmore’s policies towards black students, and how would you have wanted to see that? DBM: Well, I think in a sense it was a question not of change in policy but perhaps of intensity. Certainly if there was a desire to increase black enrollment they could have done that. But again, this idea of having to go into areas and recruit students who might be very promising but clearly had not had the academic background would have created essentially a two-tiered situation, and I didn’t think – in order to increase black enrollment, it was not necessary, and it certainly could lead to problems of its own. I guess everyone could say the admissions policy was by definition a very small school and there were lots of qualified people who did not gain admission. I’m sure a lot of people would have liked to have seen a change in policy, but I think at the time the goal was to increase – not talking about the black enrollment – but the school was going to grow toward a maximum number of I think a little over 1200 or something like that. So again, we’re talking about a very small population. And while admission to college and access to college education for all minority students at the time was of course a very important goal, to say that a school that had this particular orientation had to increase it by a particular percentage number I think might have been problematic. I don’t know that non-negotiable demands for particular increases either percentage wise or in numbers considered all the possible ramifications. Not that I, as a college junior or senior had all the answers, but I thought that there was no room for any kind of debate within SASS, it was much more like what people say, ‘OK, we’re all going to have this united front against, you know, we’re not going to have differences of opinion exposed to the outside, et cetera et cetera.’ Not all black students who were there at Swarthmore joined the organization. ARP: Yeah. So you were involved with Upward Bound. Could you tell me a bit more about your involvement and how that fit into your vision of change? DBM: Let’s see. I think I started working in Upward Bound the summer after my [sophomore] year. Let’s see. My summer after high school graduation I had worked in – this is where I really am very grateful to President Lyndon Baines Johnson’s domestic policies and his War on Poverty because I was in the Head Start program.1 I worked as a non-professional aide, so I was a teacher’s aide with four year olds, which was a really delightful experience, for two years – after my high school senior year and after my freshman year of college. It was after my sophomore year that I went to Upward Bound, and at that time it was an overnight program so the students were there during the week. They went home on the weekends, but we were in charge of them in terms of basic tutoring and work to bring their reading skills up to snuff, exposure to black history, which at that time was absolutely non-existent in the schools. And it was quite a learning experience, dealing with middle school and high school students, some of whom had real desire to learn – I mean, it’s what you get in any normal classroom situation – but what I really became interested in, was the idea of having African American history on a wider 1 Head Start started in 1965 as an early-childhood education summer program for low-income families. 3 �exposure, because when I was growing up in the public schools of Philadelphia, of course there was nothing like that. In fact, even when I graduated from Swarthmore in 1969 there were no courses offered in African American history. It wasn’t until I went back to graduate school that I was able to study it professionally. So that was a very important change, and of course that was a consequence, I think a reflection of the interest in and the persistence of African Americans to be included in the curriculum, from high school on. I think that we certainly did have students from Upward Bound who attended Swarthmore successfully. I guess the point was that, with proper background preparation – and interest and determination – yes, black students from almost anywhere could succeed at Swarthmore. But to focus exclusively or primarily on inner city schools was not necessarily, as far as I was concerned, the best approach. ARP: Yeah. You were mentioning curriculum at Swarthmore also. Were there ways that you would have liked to see the curriculum that was taught in Swarthmore classes change? DBM: Well, at that time I was just going through this very Euro-centric curriculum. I think that would have been a wonderful idea. But it was not something that I was thinking about at the time because I myself had not had any courses in African American history or studies. Those kinds of changes are wonderful, those are very important. I mean, I think the more inclusive you can be in a legitimate sense, the better that is for everyone. One of my great satisfactions here is that I teach primarily African American history at the University of Georgia. That would not have been anything one would have foreseen in 1969. ARP: Yeah, definitely. I’ve been going through the faculty minutes, and in one of the meetings from January of 1969 I found – you went to that meeting – and I found a quote where you were saying that if the college were to admit these so-called risk students, they should be including other ethnic minorities and white students. So I have a couple of questions. First of all, do you remember how you ended up going to that meeting? DBM: Well, I think that was where the college essentially shut down after the death of President Smith and there was an effort to try to address the concerns at that point. I went to that meeting, I think my now husband was in attendance at that meeting as well.2 And it was interesting to hear what the faculty had to say. I don’t remember particular individuals. I do remember there was a wide range of professors from – you know, hands off, ‘I’m not your parent, this is not in loco parentis,’ to using the idea of supporting the protest. So that was kind of interesting. Believe me, obviously this was a situation that attracted national attention. And I remember, I think the reporter from Life magazine, I think his name was Paul Good, came to campus, and he did talk to me. But it was clear that his sympathies lay with the students who had been participating in the demonstration. It was just a very interesting experience. [phone rings] Can we stop? [pause] DBM: I’m not sure I remember where we were. ARP: We were talking about the faculty meeting that you attended. 2 John Morrow, Swarthmore class of 1966. 4 �DBM: Yes, and I think that as a consequence of that my husband wrote a letter, I think that’s the one he wrote, addressing some of the concerns that he had.3 We were of one thought at that point. I think I sent a copy of that entire letter to Dr. Dorsey. It was interesting, I reread that, and I thought, ‘well, that made sense then and it makes sense now.’ I’m pretty much of accord with the issues and concerns that he raised in that. ARP: Yeah. Do you remember how you actually got to be at that meeting? Was it an open meeting, or were you invited, or did you ask to go? DBM: I think it was an open meeting because – and again, I’m very fuzzy on these details – there were no classes, the campus had essentially shut down in terms of class, and so there were meetings and discussion groups and workshops going on to try to assess or understand what was going on but also try I think to reassure the students, and some students attended, not all did. For some reason, I think this one was in the biology lecture hall. I remember that. But otherwise, I can’t remember what happened that got me to go there. I think I was interested in what the administration, what the faculty would have to say, and was certainly interested in what other students would have to say. And there were a variety of opinions voiced there. ARP: Yeah. You mentioned that there were various other black students who weren’t involved with SASS and weren’t involved with the action and may have been opposed to it. Could you talk more about those students and the nature of their opposition? Do you know if there were alternatives that they might have supported? DBM: Well you know, it’s interesting. I think those students who did not participate and – there was no counter-group, like an anti-SASS group, there was nothing like that – a lot of those students just sort of absented themselves, they did not get involved one way or another. And so I don’t think that I could with any legitimacy say what a lot of the other students thought. We did not have discussions. And so I think they withdrew or withheld their participation for a variety of reasons but I am not privy to those. ARP: Yeah. Do you have a sense of how many black students that was, that weren’t involved with SASS? DBM: Hm. That, we could probably do that two ways. I don’t know, is there a membership roll of SASS? ARP: No. I think – we should be able to – DBM: Yeah, that would be interesting. Are there minutes of SASS meetings? ARP: I haven’t seen them. There might be. DBM: OK. Probably the college, unless someone who was involved with it. You know I guess, Clinton Etheridge was the president and I think Sam Shepherd the vice president at that particular time. But there were certainly some very strong black women who were involved in 3 Letter from John Morrow, 01/09/1969. 5 �the organization and in promoting and supporting it. I don’t know – again, because I wasn’t a member, I couldn’t really say – whether they kept minutes or notes or who might have them if they do exist. Clinton Etheridge might know. ARP: Earlier, you were talking about how when you went to that one SASS meeting, there were students from outside – DBM: Mhm. Well, I don’t know that they were students. There were people from outside. ARP: People from outside. OK, can you talk about a little bit more how you understood their role in SASS? DBM: My point was, if you call a meeting of black Swarthmore students – and I don’t even know if they said they were going to form an organization – what they didn’t say was that there were these people, these individuals who were not Swarthmore students, who not only were present but in some respects tried to take over the meeting, which to me was problematic. And so that in itself was an issue, and then as I said before, they were saying, ‘we will talk and we will speak and you don’t speak individually,’ and I mean, that just to me was outlandish. If this was their modus operandi, I was not really interested in joining anything like that. That’s why I left. And unfortunately, because I left, I am not in a position to say what happened internally. By that time, I know that there were individuals who – have you talked to Don Mizell, for example? ARP: I haven’t, but students in the class will. DBM: OK, I think Sherryl Brown, Michael Graves, Marilyn Holifield, Marilyn Allman, Janette Domingo, Joyce Frisby - I can’t remember names at this point, but there were several who were active in the organization. Pat – I can’t remember Pat’s last name. ARP: I’m sure we can find that. In early January of 1969, SASS sent around a letter asking other black students not to speak in opposition to them.4 Do you remember that? DBM: I don’t remember that. I probably at that point was discounting anything I got from SASS. They may have, I don’t know. ARP: Sure. So after President Smith died, a lot of black students left campus. Did you leave campus at that point? DBM: No. ARP: OK. Do you know, was that only SASS? DBM: I don’t know. ARP: OK. I wanted to ask you more about the Life magazine article that you’re quoted in. Do you mind if I read? 4 Letter from SASS dated January 8, attached to John Morrow’s letter. 6 �DBM: Please do. ARP: You were quoted there as saying, “A few people in SASS formulate policy and impose it on others. They don’t let people think for themselves, browbeating them and calling them ‘Tom’ and ‘honky.’ I’m just not willing to subordinate my individuality for the common thinking. You make an implicit commitment to education when you choose Swarthmore. SASS disregards the fact that it’s intellectually tougher here. They say there should be just as many blacks as at a state college, whether or not they qualify. That’s reverse paternalism. At the same time, some of them tell cute black chicks: Don’t date white! Then they do it. I get cynical.” DBM: My god, I said that? ARP: They quoted you as saying that. DBM: OK, well. ARP: So I was wondering how you felt or how you feel about how Life was using your words and your perspective? DBM: I think that I probably – that’s a pretty accurate assessment. I don’t think I would have said, ‘I get cynical,’ [nor would I have used such terms as ‘cute black chicks.’] But I think almost everything else there was an accurate reflection of how I felt. I was particularly noting the fact that while, again, the leadership was trying to restrict contact with white people, it was almost as if ‘you don’t talk except through us,’ there were certain men in the organization who didn’t seem to have that problem for themselves. In other words, they were fraternizing with white women on campus even if they were telling other people, ‘you’re not supposed to be doing this kind of thing.’ So that was really quite hypocritical. I was not impressed positively with that. ARP: Yeah, definitely. In that article, they’re using you to put you in a conversation that’s very critical of SASS, and I’m wondering how you felt particularly about your role in that conversation, in that larger national conversation? DBM: One of the things was, I think it was that experience that taught me a valuable lesson that if I give an interview that I always want to have final right of editing or reviewing. I think that – those were not verbatim quotes – but upon reflection some 45 years later, they essentially did represent the way I felt, and I did not feel that it was a problem to be presented as in opposition to what I perceived SASS’ policies were, because I was. I really don’t feel, ‘oh, if I had to do it over again I wouldn’t do it,’ because I was really just expressing at the time the way I felt based on my own personal experience and my own personality and what’s amazing is that, 45 years later, I don’t think I would retract any of that. It was interesting, I don’t know if the reporter went to other people and tried to get them to speak. I don’t know that. I don’t know how he operated. I don’t know if other people did speak and he chose not to use them. I don’t know if I was the only person who was willing to speak. I have no idea about the context in which that came out. But once it occurred, I was neither pleased nor displeased because I could not say that he has 7 �completely misrepresented my perspective and my focus, because he hadn’t. But it was obvious that he was setting me up as the one person who did not seem to agree, and that was not the case. ARP: Right. In terms of there being other people – DBM: Other people who’d either, I mean, there are both acts, if not sins, of omission and commission. And by purposefully not participating, by leaving campus, by not identifying one way or another, you still are taking a stand, you still are voicing a perspective or an opinion, and I think that there was probably more diversity of opinion than just me in opposition and everyone else in favor. I don’t think that was the case at all. It was much more nuanced, much more complicated than that. ARP: Yeah, certainly. Those are all the questions that I prepared, but I don’t know if there’s anything else you think it’s important to say in terms of what was happening over that school year or what your perspective on that was. DBM: Yes. As you can tell from many of the questions you asked where I have had to say I don’t remember, I can’t recall. I do remember something very personal that happened in 1968. Aside from the then shock of Dr. King’s assassination in early April, a little over a week after Dr. King’s assassination, John Morrow’s and my engagement was announced in the newspaper, and there was very little response from anybody on campus, except I will always remember that Marilyn Holifield very graciously congratulated me. And at the time, I noted that and I appreciated that, and I understand that Marilyn also gave Dr. Dorsey my name as someone that should be included in her reformulation of what was happening, and I appreciate that today too. ARP: Yeah, thank you. That’s good to hear. DBM: And, anything else. I’ll say this, I’ve often said that at this stage of my life there are two decisions that I made that I do not regret. One is choosing to attend Swarthmore. And the other is saying yes when my husband proposed to me. And in the intervening years, there are lots of decisions I’ve made one way or another, but those two stand out to me as, if I had to do it again, I would do it again. For all of the complexity and all of the issues attending my four years at Swarthmore, it was a very positive experience. I went to it for academic rigor, I certainly got that, and I think it has stood me well in the professorial career that I have chosen. ARP: Thank you. Is there anything else? DBM: Let’s see, Ali. I can’t think of anything. But if I do, I have your phone number, or I could email you. But, this is interesting, as a historian, to look at something that happened 45 years ago as an eyewitness, and of course you always have to adjust for eyewitness accounts and memories. But I was quite interested when you quoted me from that article, because I thought, yeah, I probably did say that, and I certainly stand by that. So, in a sense, how do they say that, ‘that’s my story and I’m sticking to it.’ It’s interesting that I would not say, ‘in the intervening years I have come to feel this that and the other’ – but no, not about that. About other things in life, but not about that. 8 �ARP: Yeah, certainly. Well, thank you. DBM: You’re welcome. Addendum, July 21, 2014: ARP: Listening to and reading over this, I would be interested to know if you have anything to say about SASS' demands for Black Studies or a Black Cultural Center. DBM: I did not attend any SASS meetings beyond the first organizational ones, so I do not recall their demands for Black Studies. Given the fact that at the time I taught black history on the Upward Bound Summer programs, I would probably not have taken issue with that particular demand. Given the fact that I have devoted my professorial career to teaching black history I certainly endorse it today. The Black Cultural Center and its segregating potential would have been a different matter in 1969.5 5 The first documented demand for a Black Cultural Center came in July 1969, after Diane Batts Morrow graduated. 9 � Interview with Diane Batts Morrow, who graduated from Swarthmore College in 1969. She earned her PhD in history from the University of Georgia, and is author of the book Persons of Color and Religious at the Same Time: The Oblate Sisters of Providence, 1828-1860. She now teaches History and African American Studies at the University of Georgia. Interview conducted by Alison Roseberry-Polier, research assistant, on July 15, 2014, at the home of Diane Batts Morrow. The transcription is word-for-word, with the exception of filler words. At the end, there is an addendum written over email the following week. Alison Roseberry-Polier: OK, so, to begin with could you tell me a little bit about your time at Swarthmore, what you were involved in doing, what you spent your time on, just to give me an overview and a sense of what your time was like? Diane Batts Morrow: OK, I will dig deep into the recesses of my brain to recall. I guess it was almost 50 years ago because I graduated 45 years ago. I was a history major at Swarthmore. I think I worked on the school newspaper. I was the circulation department for a while. I wasn’t involved in athletics or anything like that. Let’s see, I early on discovered I wanted to be a history major, and I think for me the biggest intellectual experience at Swarthmore was discovering the huge difference between history as presented at Swarthmore and history as presented in high school. I hated history in high school, and when I got to Swarthmore we were talking about concepts and ideas and people in a new way. It not only made sense, but it made history really important, so I was delighted at that discovery and decided to be a history major early on. I was not particularly active in any clubs or organizations and – let’s see, what did I do when I was there? I was a senior resident my senior year. I did get involved with the Upward Bound program. I was a counselor on the Upward Bound program for my junior and senior years and that was a really important and wonderful experience for me. Other than that, I don’t really have a whole lot to say. Classes were good, I had friends, and although I lived in Philadelphia, I stayed on campus, and I remember distinctly that it cost exactly one dollar to go home on the Media local. It was as if I lived much farther away because I did not go home any more than people who lived a significant distance did. I really did appreciate and enjoy my Swarthmore experience. ARP: Thank you. Could you narrow in, tell me about your understanding of the events of the 1968-1969 year, especially as it relates to admissions policy and the SASS takeover? DBM: Yes. I remember I attended the first meeting, the organizational meeting, for SASS, and did not particularly appreciate the tenor or the tone of it. First of all there were individuals who were not Swarthmore students who were there who essentially organized it, and were telling the black students who attended, ‘don’t speak to white students, don’t speak to anyone, we’ll tell you what to say and what to do.’ And of course, this seemed to go against all the principles and values I had – my parents and my home, and certainly the thought of independent thinking would seem to go against it. It seemed really outrageous for these total strangers to come in and think they had the authority to tell me what to think, to whom I could speak, et cetera et cetera. So I essentially walked out of that first meeting, essentially saying that my own parents, who are paying my tuition, do not presume to tell me what to think and with whom I can associate, and so you have no authority to do that either, and so I did not join SASS, was quite troubled by the seeming intention of it, and so I did not join the organization. I did not participate in the student 1 �sit-in in the admissions office. I had a different perspective on what Swarthmore could do in terms of increasing black enrollment. Now, I can’t remember the exact size of the classes at the time, but my entering class in 1965, I think there were 16 people of African descent – as it turned out, in the tradition of the Quaker matchbox, 8 men and 8 women, although the college really couldn’t control that. Obviously they had admitted more who chose to go elsewhere, but 16 people of African descent in that small class seemed significant. They were of varied backgrounds and locations and experiences. And I had no problem with the thought of increasing the enrollment of black students, but what I was concerned about was this feeling that in order to increase black enrollment you automatically had to go into schools where, I guess inner-city schools, and recruit students who may or may not have the kind of background – I mean, to be very honest, Swarthmore at the time and still I believe enjoys this reputation of being an academically elite institution of people who are very committed to and excel in academic work. The presumption that in order to increase your black enrollment you had to recruit from inner city schools seemed very problematic. For one thing, Swarthmore really at the time did not recruit. I mean, I think that Dean Hargadon, who was the dean of admissions, he would go to California. But they never went into the South, they never went into other areas where you would find students who were really very academically prepared to attend Swarthmore. And I think in a sense the presumption that you had to go to inner city schools to increase your enrollment was, in a sense, racist – that there were not black students who existed elsewhere who would have heard of Swarthmore who would be interested in going. And so I thought that was rather a wrongheaded approach. At the same time, of course, with my work on Upward Bound, working with the students from Chester, I realized that there certainly were students almost anywhere who were committed to improving academically and who would be interested in coming to Swarthmore. So this whole idea of going into Harlem or going into Compton and that’s where you were going to recruit seemed unnecessary and frankly kind of stereotyped to me. ARP: Yeah. Just to back up quickly for one second, when was the first SASS meeting that you went to? DBM: It was in 1968, I can’t really recall. And if it wasn’t the first it was among the first because they were still organizing. ARP: OK. So SASS hadn’t existed before 1968? DBM: No. As far as I’m concerned it did not. It certainly was not in existence in ’65 and ’66, and I don’t think it was there in ’67. I really think it was ’68, though I wouldn’t swear to that. I think that if there are materials, other materials might indicate otherwise. But it certainly did not exist in my first couple of years there at Swarthmore. I think it was pretty much a 1968, late ’67 maybe, ’68 phenomenon. ARP: OK. And was the meeting that you went to in the fall of 1968, or the spring? DBM: That I don’t remember. ARP: OK, that’s fine, thank you. 2 �DBM: I believe it took place in the dining hall. I’m not sure about that though. But I can’t tell which particular time. I think, because of my decision not to participate, that kind of historic information escaped me. ARP: Yeah, definitely, that makes sense. So, were there changes that you would have liked to see in Swarthmore’s admissions policy, or Swarthmore’s policies towards black students, and how would you have wanted to see that? DBM: Well, I think in a sense it was a question not of change in policy but perhaps of intensity. Certainly if there was a desire to increase black enrollment they could have done that. But again, this idea of having to go into areas and recruit students who might be very promising but clearly had not had the academic background would have created essentially a two-tiered situation, and I didn’t think – in order to increase black enrollment, it was not necessary, and it certainly could lead to problems of its own. I guess everyone could say the admissions policy was by definition a very small school and there were lots of qualified people who did not gain admission. I’m sure a lot of people would have liked to have seen a change in policy, but I think at the time the goal was to increase – not talking about the black enrollment – but the school was going to grow toward a maximum number of I think a little over 1200 or something like that. So again, we’re talking about a very small population. And while admission to college and access to college education for all minority students at the time was of course a very important goal, to say that a school that had this particular orientation had to increase it by a particular percentage number I think might have been problematic. I don’t know that non-negotiable demands for particular increases either percentage wise or in numbers considered all the possible ramifications. Not that I, as a college junior or senior had all the answers, but I thought that there was no room for any kind of debate within SASS, it was much more like what people say, ‘OK, we’re all going to have this united front against, you know, we’re not going to have differences of opinion exposed to the outside, et cetera et cetera.’ Not all black students who were there at Swarthmore joined the organization. ARP: Yeah. So you were involved with Upward Bound. Could you tell me a bit more about your involvement and how that fit into your vision of change? DBM: Let’s see. I think I started working in Upward Bound the summer after my [sophomore] year. Let’s see. My summer after high school graduation I had worked in – this is where I really am very grateful to President Lyndon Baines Johnson’s domestic policies and his War on Poverty because I was in the Head Start program.1 I worked as a non-professional aide, so I was a teacher’s aide with four year olds, which was a really delightful experience, for two years – after my high school senior year and after my freshman year of college. It was after my sophomore year that I went to Upward Bound, and at that time it was an overnight program so the students were there during the week. They went home on the weekends, but we were in charge of them in terms of basic tutoring and work to bring their reading skills up to snuff, exposure to black history, which at that time was absolutely non-existent in the schools. And it was quite a learning experience, dealing with middle school and high school students, some of whom had real desire to learn – I mean, it’s what you get in any normal classroom situation – but what I really became interested in, was the idea of having African American history on a wider 1 Head Start started in 1965 as an early-childhood education summer program for low-income families. 3 �exposure, because when I was growing up in the public schools of Philadelphia, of course there was nothing like that. In fact, even when I graduated from Swarthmore in 1969 there were no courses offered in African American history. It wasn’t until I went back to graduate school that I was able to study it professionally. So that was a very important change, and of course that was a consequence, I think a reflection of the interest in and the persistence of African Americans to be included in the curriculum, from high school on. I think that we certainly did have students from Upward Bound who attended Swarthmore successfully. I guess the point was that, with proper background preparation – and interest and determination – yes, black students from almost anywhere could succeed at Swarthmore. But to focus exclusively or primarily on inner city schools was not necessarily, as far as I was concerned, the best approach. ARP: Yeah. You were mentioning curriculum at Swarthmore also. Were there ways that you would have liked to see the curriculum that was taught in Swarthmore classes change? DBM: Well, at that time I was just going through this very Euro-centric curriculum. I think that would have been a wonderful idea. But it was not something that I was thinking about at the time because I myself had not had any courses in African American history or studies. Those kinds of changes are wonderful, those are very important. I mean, I think the more inclusive you can be in a legitimate sense, the better that is for everyone. One of my great satisfactions here is that I teach primarily African American history at the University of Georgia. That would not have been anything one would have foreseen in 1969. ARP: Yeah, definitely. I’ve been going through the faculty minutes, and in one of the meetings from January of 1969 I found – you went to that meeting – and I found a quote where you were saying that if the college were to admit these so-called risk students, they should be including other ethnic minorities and white students. So I have a couple of questions. First of all, do you remember how you ended up going to that meeting? DBM: Well, I think that was where the college essentially shut down after the death of President Smith and there was an effort to try to address the concerns at that point. I went to that meeting, I think my now husband was in attendance at that meeting as well.2 And it was interesting to hear what the faculty had to say. I don’t remember particular individuals. I do remember there was a wide range of professors from – you know, hands off, ‘I’m not your parent, this is not in loco parentis,’ to using the idea of supporting the protest. So that was kind of interesting. Believe me, obviously this was a situation that attracted national attention. And I remember, I think the reporter from Life magazine, I think his name was Paul Good, came to campus, and he did talk to me. But it was clear that his sympathies lay with the students who had been participating in the demonstration. It was just a very interesting experience. [phone rings] Can we stop? [pause] DBM: I’m not sure I remember where we were. ARP: We were talking about the faculty meeting that you attended. 2 John Morrow, Swarthmore class of 1966. 4 �DBM: Yes, and I think that as a consequence of that my husband wrote a letter, I think that’s the one he wrote, addressing some of the concerns that he had.3 We were of one thought at that point. I think I sent a copy of that entire letter to Dr. Dorsey. It was interesting, I reread that, and I thought, ‘well, that made sense then and it makes sense now.’ I’m pretty much of accord with the issues and concerns that he raised in that. ARP: Yeah. Do you remember how you actually got to be at that meeting? Was it an open meeting, or were you invited, or did you ask to go? DBM: I think it was an open meeting because – and again, I’m very fuzzy on these details – there were no classes, the campus had essentially shut down in terms of class, and so there were meetings and discussion groups and workshops going on to try to assess or understand what was going on but also try I think to reassure the students, and some students attended, not all did. For some reason, I think this one was in the biology lecture hall. I remember that. But otherwise, I can’t remember what happened that got me to go there. I think I was interested in what the administration, what the faculty would have to say, and was certainly interested in what other students would have to say. And there were a variety of opinions voiced there. ARP: Yeah. You mentioned that there were various other black students who weren’t involved with SASS and weren’t involved with the action and may have been opposed to it. Could you talk more about those students and the nature of their opposition? Do you know if there were alternatives that they might have supported? DBM: Well you know, it’s interesting. I think those students who did not participate and – there was no counter-group, like an anti-SASS group, there was nothing like that – a lot of those students just sort of absented themselves, they did not get involved one way or another. And so I don’t think that I could with any legitimacy say what a lot of the other students thought. We did not have discussions. And so I think they withdrew or withheld their participation for a variety of reasons but I am not privy to those. ARP: Yeah. Do you have a sense of how many black students that was, that weren’t involved with SASS? DBM: Hm. That, we could probably do that two ways. I don’t know, is there a membership roll of SASS? ARP: No. I think – we should be able to – DBM: Yeah, that would be interesting. Are there minutes of SASS meetings? ARP: I haven’t seen them. There might be. DBM: OK. Probably the college, unless someone who was involved with it. You know I guess, Clinton Etheridge was the president and I think Sam Shepherd the vice president at that particular time. But there were certainly some very strong black women who were involved in 3 Letter from John Morrow, 01/09/1969. 5 �the organization and in promoting and supporting it. I don’t know – again, because I wasn’t a member, I couldn’t really say – whether they kept minutes or notes or who might have them if they do exist. Clinton Etheridge might know. ARP: Earlier, you were talking about how when you went to that one SASS meeting, there were students from outside – DBM: Mhm. Well, I don’t know that they were students. There were people from outside. ARP: People from outside. OK, can you talk about a little bit more how you understood their role in SASS? DBM: My point was, if you call a meeting of black Swarthmore students – and I don’t even know if they said they were going to form an organization – what they didn’t say was that there were these people, these individuals who were not Swarthmore students, who not only were present but in some respects tried to take over the meeting, which to me was problematic. And so that in itself was an issue, and then as I said before, they were saying, ‘we will talk and we will speak and you don’t speak individually,’ and I mean, that just to me was outlandish. If this was their modus operandi, I was not really interested in joining anything like that. That’s why I left. And unfortunately, because I left, I am not in a position to say what happened internally. By that time, I know that there were individuals who – have you talked to Don Mizell, for example? ARP: I haven’t, but students in the class will. DBM: OK, I think Sherryl Brown, Michael Graves, Marilyn Holifield, Marilyn Allman, Janette Domingo, Joyce Frisby - I can’t remember names at this point, but there were several who were active in the organization. Pat – I can’t remember Pat’s last name. ARP: I’m sure we can find that. In early January of 1969, SASS sent around a letter asking other black students not to speak in opposition to them.4 Do you remember that? DBM: I don’t remember that. I probably at that point was discounting anything I got from SASS. They may have, I don’t know. ARP: Sure. So after President Smith died, a lot of black students left campus. Did you leave campus at that point? DBM: No. ARP: OK. Do you know, was that only SASS? DBM: I don’t know. ARP: OK. I wanted to ask you more about the Life magazine article that you’re quoted in. Do you mind if I read? 4 Letter from SASS dated January 8, attached to John Morrow’s letter. 6 �DBM: Please do. ARP: You were quoted there as saying, “A few people in SASS formulate policy and impose it on others. They don’t let people think for themselves, browbeating them and calling them ‘Tom’ and ‘honky.’ I’m just not willing to subordinate my individuality for the common thinking. You make an implicit commitment to education when you choose Swarthmore. SASS disregards the fact that it’s intellectually tougher here. They say there should be just as many blacks as at a state college, whether or not they qualify. That’s reverse paternalism. At the same time, some of them tell cute black chicks: Don’t date white! Then they do it. I get cynical.” DBM: My god, I said that? ARP: They quoted you as saying that. DBM: OK, well. ARP: So I was wondering how you felt or how you feel about how Life was using your words and your perspective? DBM: I think that I probably – that’s a pretty accurate assessment. I don’t think I would have said, ‘I get cynical,’ [nor would I have used such terms as ‘cute black chicks.’] But I think almost everything else there was an accurate reflection of how I felt. I was particularly noting the fact that while, again, the leadership was trying to restrict contact with white people, it was almost as if ‘you don’t talk except through us,’ there were certain men in the organization who didn’t seem to have that problem for themselves. In other words, they were fraternizing with white women on campus even if they were telling other people, ‘you’re not supposed to be doing this kind of thing.’ So that was really quite hypocritical. I was not impressed positively with that. ARP: Yeah, definitely. In that article, they’re using you to put you in a conversation that’s very critical of SASS, and I’m wondering how you felt particularly about your role in that conversation, in that larger national conversation? DBM: One of the things was, I think it was that experience that taught me a valuable lesson that if I give an interview that I always want to have final right of editing or reviewing. I think that – those were not verbatim quotes – but upon reflection some 45 years later, they essentially did represent the way I felt, and I did not feel that it was a problem to be presented as in opposition to what I perceived SASS’ policies were, because I was. I really don’t feel, ‘oh, if I had to do it over again I wouldn’t do it,’ because I was really just expressing at the time the way I felt based on my own personal experience and my own personality and what’s amazing is that, 45 years later, I don’t think I would retract any of that. It was interesting, I don’t know if the reporter went to other people and tried to get them to speak. I don’t know that. I don’t know how he operated. I don’t know if other people did speak and he chose not to use them. I don’t know if I was the only person who was willing to speak. I have no idea about the context in which that came out. But once it occurred, I was neither pleased nor displeased because I could not say that he has 7 �completely misrepresented my perspective and my focus, because he hadn’t. But it was obvious that he was setting me up as the one person who did not seem to agree, and that was not the case. ARP: Right. In terms of there being other people – DBM: Other people who’d either, I mean, there are both acts, if not sins, of omission and commission. And by purposefully not participating, by leaving campus, by not identifying one way or another, you still are taking a stand, you still are voicing a perspective or an opinion, and I think that there was probably more diversity of opinion than just me in opposition and everyone else in favor. I don’t think that was the case at all. It was much more nuanced, much more complicated than that. ARP: Yeah, certainly. Those are all the questions that I prepared, but I don’t know if there’s anything else you think it’s important to say in terms of what was happening over that school year or what your perspective on that was. DBM: Yes. As you can tell from many of the questions you asked where I have had to say I don’t remember, I can’t recall. I do remember something very personal that happened in 1968. Aside from the then shock of Dr. King’s assassination in early April, a little over a week after Dr. King’s assassination, John Morrow’s and my engagement was announced in the newspaper, and there was very little response from anybody on campus, except I will always remember that Marilyn Holifield very graciously congratulated me. And at the time, I noted that and I appreciated that, and I understand that Marilyn also gave Dr. Dorsey my name as someone that should be included in her reformulation of what was happening, and I appreciate that today too. ARP: Yeah, thank you. That’s good to hear. DBM: And, anything else. I’ll say this, I’ve often said that at this stage of my life there are two decisions that I made that I do not regret. One is choosing to attend Swarthmore. And the other is saying yes when my husband proposed to me. And in the intervening years, there are lots of decisions I’ve made one way or another, but those two stand out to me as, if I had to do it again, I would do it again. For all of the complexity and all of the issues attending my four years at Swarthmore, it was a very positive experience. I went to it for academic rigor, I certainly got that, and I think it has stood me well in the professorial career that I have chosen. ARP: Thank you. Is there anything else? DBM: Let’s see, Ali. I can’t think of anything. But if I do, I have your phone number, or I could email you. But, this is interesting, as a historian, to look at something that happened 45 years ago as an eyewitness, and of course you always have to adjust for eyewitness accounts and memories. But I was quite interested when you quoted me from that article, because I thought, yeah, I probably did say that, and I certainly stand by that. So, in a sense, how do they say that, ‘that’s my story and I’m sticking to it.’ It’s interesting that I would not say, ‘in the intervening years I have come to feel this that and the other’ – but no, not about that. About other things in life, but not about that. 8 �ARP: Yeah, certainly. Well, thank you. DBM: You’re welcome. Addendum, July 21, 2014: ARP: Listening to and reading over this, I would be interested to know if you have anything to say about SASS' demands for Black Studies or a Black Cultural Center. DBM: I did not attend any SASS meetings beyond the first organizational ones, so I do not recall their demands for Black Studies. Given the fact that at the time I taught black history on the Upward Bound Summer programs, I would probably not have taken issue with that particular demand. Given the fact that I have devoted my professorial career to teaching black history I certainly endorse it today. The Black Cultural Center and its segregating potential would have been a different matter in 1969.5 5 The first documented demand for a Black Cultural Center came in July 1969, after Diane Batts Morrow graduated. 9 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interviews Description An account of the resource Audio files, transcriptions and photographs documenting the interviews of Swarthmore College alumni, former faculty, and community activists who played an active role in the Black activism at Swarthmore College from 1968 to 1972. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Black Liberation 1969 Research Team Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Diane Batts Morrow Interview Transcription Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 07/15/2014 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource PDF Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ali Roseberry-Polier Diane Batts Morrow 1969 sit-in Black admissions Black Cultural Center Black Studies Clinton Etheridge Diane Batts (Morrow) John Morrow Marilyn Holifield Sam Shepard Samuel Jordan Jr. http://s3.amazonaws.com/sc-lib-ds-bl1969/original/2ceef6c92d074a4a851ec6ce3b13f524.JPG e3242e49f7af806dfb3a3516643c6cf5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interviews Description An account of the resource Audio files, transcriptions and photographs documenting the interviews of Swarthmore College alumni, former faculty, and community activists who played an active role in the Black activism at Swarthmore College from 1968 to 1972. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Black Liberation 1969 Research Team Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Diane Batts Morrow Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ali Roseberry-Polier Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 07/15/2014 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource JPG